FT-86 II Concept Photos from Geneva!! Motherload of photos.

[Siriusly.Andrew]

Originally Posted by Dark

Because they want to be NASCAR drivers.
I don't see why being fast on the straight is kool if you will. When I ride on my bike I would overtake any car less than 450 hp, but I don't even bother. There is no point to go fast like a NASCAR driver.

I always enjoy the 1/2mile twisty near my house and suddenly feel boring to go fast on the straight line(free way).

Yeah a fast straight needs a nice sharp curve at the end of it, otherwise it's pretty lame. Need moar brakes!

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

1. Does this forum represent exactly 1% of all possible car buyers or even sports car buyers -- I have no idea, but the answer is you (we) are a very small minority.

2. How do I know that -- answer: There are almost no new cars in production that reflect your fervent wishes for a lightweight NA sports car. Why? THERE IS ALMOST NO MARKET FOR IT.

Toyota is hoping that they can recreate one -- BUT, if they are smart, they will not ignore the other market forces at work -- consumers have moved towards some muscle over luxury or economy.

Which cars have survived, even with the return of the pony cars: Four door "rally cars" with turbos.


3. I couldn't care less if the rest of the world has a deeper appreciation for underpowered NA sports cars because if the car never goes on sale in America it doesn't help me. Lots of cool cars go on sale in Europe that don't come here, and that is awesome -- for them.

4. News of the FT-86 is everywhere and the most frequently occuring comment is: "I hope it's not all show, no go." not "I sure hope this thing doesn't have a turbo".

HP sells cars in the good old US of A (never mind whether the engine makes it for like 100 RPM at peak -- that's another story), not slalom or braking times.

Toyota just needs to get this car to manage a 0-60 in under 7 seconds, and it will sell. If it's over 7 seconds, it will be deemed "another lackluster Toyota 'sporty' car".

Just my prediction... who knows, maybe everything that's happend in the past has no bearing on the future and everyone will be blown away by it's underpowered awesomeness.

K, cuz you're so closed minded I'll keep it in US for you...

Just say (& this is IF situation) FT86 comes out in 200hp/whatever-tq weight around 2750 lbs w gas mileage of 22city/30hwy & price tag of base $22k~up.

Now, Toyota is competing not only in Miata, Z and other sports cars... but it's also competing against Civic (Si) & other DD cars. iirc new Civic Si runs 195hp/140tq weight around 2850 lbs w gas mileage of 21city/29hwy price tag starts around $22k~up.

Not only Toyota be competing in motorsports world, but how Toyota open up a option for people that want something nice, but not too pricey and something other than Civic (my bet is more towards ladies). I know several friends (girls) that want somewhat of sports car, but don't want expensive Z, but want brand new car, (not a used S2k) and don't want a convertible... now isn't that sounds like FT86?

Adding those consumers, are you still can say there gonna be only 1%?

If Toyota did this, I can bet you we'll see more ppl buying this car not only for motorsports, but for just A to B car that isn't shame to drive. Of course, there's always a negative thing to it. I'm pretty sure we'll see more rice out FT86c, but what car haven't been riced out.

[Cessblood]

I want to see the interior

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

1. Does this forum represent exactly 1% of all possible car buyers or even sports car buyers -- I have no idea, but the answer is you (we) are a very small minority.

<snip>
4. News of the FT-86 is everywhere and the most frequently occuring comment is: "I hope it's not all show, no go." not "I sure hope this thing doesn't have a turbo".

That's a self-defeating argument. If we're a small vocal minority, why would it matter that the same vocal minority hopes "it's not all show, no go"? Answer? It doesn't matter.

2. How do I know that -- answer: There are almost no new cars in production that reflect your fervent wishes for a lightweight NA sports car. Why? THERE IS ALMOST NO MARKET FOR IT.
<snip>
Which cars have survived, even with the return of the pony cars: Four door "rally cars" with turbos.

And guess what, Mitsubishi is mulling killing the Evolution altogether. Why? Because 300hp and AWD isn't enough to convince ppl to spend $30k on a car that gets maybe 25 mpg.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/autoc...s-no-more.aspx

Don't think you're grasping how much the market is changing. The appeal of a lightweight NA sports car (as opposed to a 300+hp car like the Evo) isn't just that you can pretend to be a Tofu-delivery man. When you design a car around a smaller displacement and make it lightweight, it's also going to be more fuel efficient. With rising CAFE standards, CO2 taxes (in Europe), and a dramatic shift in market towards fuel economy over performance, making another 370Z/S2000 is a losing proposition.

In the face of 370 sales dropping like a rock, and companies like Mitsubishi pondering killing performance-oriented models, it's even a miracle that Toyota would make a 200hp RWD coupe, let alone some boosted 300hp Supra-successor.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

I think it's just a states thing then, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to mash a gas pedal and go fast.

On the same hand it takes more than a good driver to enjoy a nice mountain pass. I like my civic. Light, responsive and fast at the track. Not the fastest but I'm faster than a few people in "superior powered" cars.

Stupid Americans just want a fast sporty car cause all their roads are straight lines I guess.

What is this mindset that if you enjoy cornering and the track, then there is only room for low torque high rpms? Other than sheer momentum (which I use at the race track currently to pass up cars with more hp than I am running right now), Torque is the other factor on corner exits, especially low speed corners. Not everyone who likes power/torque are about straight line only.

[matadormi5]

Originally Posted by Aki

Don't think you're grasping how much the market is changing. The appeal of a lightweight NA sports car (as opposed to a 300+hp car like the Evo) isn't just that you can pretend to be a Tofu-delivery man. When you design a car around a smaller displacement and make it lightweight, it's also going to be more fuel efficient. With rising CAFE standards, CO2 taxes (in Europe), and a dramatic shift in market towards fuel economy over performance, making another 370Z/S2000 is a losing proposition.

True words indeed.

A lot of people hate the idea of "greener" and more efficient cars because they think it MUST mean a dull hybrid sedan. It doesn't! The car world is not about absolutes--it's not a choice between one or the other.

Almost all the future sports cars will follow the FT-86 and become lighter, simpler, and more efficient via smaller engines.

While most 370z, Evo, etc. fans will find this a terrible idea, they're probably forgetting that the same qualities of an efficient car are the basics for a pure sports car.

[Jordo!]

This reminds me of the AWD argument...

Someone owes me a beer on here -- let's go for two.

Prediction: Car will not sell well if 0-60 is over 7 seconds.

We'll just have to wait and see if the views expressed by hard core car enthusiasts with very specific wants and needs is in keeping with the vast majority of people who will be open to buying a sports car.

My magic 8 ball says no, but I've been wrong before.

And 0-60 in under 7 seconds is respectable -- not crazy fast.

I guess the follow-up question is: How slow will be too slow? What is the benchmark?

And yes, Americans may be stupid, but if you want the car to be available here, you can't ignore what people will tend to buy.

It doesn't matter if they "get it" in Japan or Europe unless you live there.

US citizens with an "enlightend" attitude, keep that in mind.

[Siriusly.Andrew]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

What is this mindset that if you enjoy cornering and the track, then there is only room for low torque high rpms? Other than sheer momentum (which I use at the race track currently to pass up cars with more hp than I am running right now), Torque is the other factor on corner exits, especially low speed corners. Not everyone who likes power/torque are about straight line only.

Where did I say that only Americans want torque monsters to go fast in a straight line?

I said Americans want to go fast in a straight line -- Look at NASA lol (huge exaggeration but come on, it was good) 200 miles in 4 minutes plz.

There are different strokes for different folks but we're seeing a lot of "you can't call a torqueless wonder a sports car" where its been proven and accepted that you can.

Just like we see a lot of (I'm guilty of this) "Torque monsters are only good for drag races". The driver dictates how to use the car, the car is a medium to do anything the driver wants. Thats something I forgot, and forget way to often. There are different cars with different strengths, but no one says the S2K can't be a drag king and no one said a Mustang can't be a track god.

And then theres people like you who will buy the best bargain, and then turn it into what he wants. Which is wonderful, but a lot of people including myself do not have the money or the time to spend on such projects so it would make sense to get it all in one affordable package, which the FT is offering us at the moment. Assuming they keep it light, and ~200bhp.

[tripjammer]

What really sucks is that they did not show the interior...Why?

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

We'll just have to wait and see if the views expressed by hard core car enthusiasts with very specific wants and needs is in keeping with the vast majority of people who will be open to buying a sports car.

My magic 8 ball says no, but I've been wrong before.

And 0-60 in under 7 seconds is respectable -- not crazy fast.

Think you're oversimplifying hardcore enthusiasts though. If you're talking about enthusiasts that like autocrossing with SCCA or circuit racing through NASA, it's not just about the 0-60. I mean the Miata is a hardcore enthusiast car, look how much HP that thing makes stock.

Scratching my head at how you think 200hp alienates enthusiasts. Look at the users on this forum. You have S2K users, people with Supras, Subies... that seems like a wide swath of hardcore enthusiasts to me. You keep equating hardcore enthusiast with people who want sub 5-second 0-60 times, and it's not that simplistic. 200 hp and 2800ish pounds is mid 6, if not lower.

It doesn't matter if they "get it" in Japan or Europe unless you live there.

US citizens with an "enlightend" attitude, keep that in mind.

Actually if anything this car will sell like crap in Japan, and maybe meh in Europe. Only the US market do people like coupes. Coupes are nonexistent save for the CR-Z in Japan, and like Europe ppl prefer hatchbacks.

[Giccin]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

K, cuz you're so closed minded I'll keep it in US for you...

Just say (& this is IF situation) FT86 comes out in 200hp/whatever-tq weight around 2750 lbs w gas mileage of 22city/30hwy & price tag of base $22k~up.

Now, Toyota is competing not only in Miata, Z and other sports cars... but it's also competing against Civic (Si) & other DD cars. iirc new Civic Si runs 195hp/140tq weight around 2850 lbs w gas mileage of 21city/29hwy price tag starts around $22k~up.

Not only Toyota be competing in motorsports world, but how Toyota open up a option for people that want something nice, but not too pricey and something other than Civic (my bet is more towards ladies). I know several friends (girls) that want somewhat of sports car, but don't want expensive Z, but want brand new car, (not a used S2k) and don't want a convertible... now isn't that sounds like FT86?

Adding those consumers, are you still can say there gonna be only 1%?

If Toyota did this, I can bet you we'll see more ppl buying this car not only for motorsports, but for just A to B car that isn't shame to drive. Of course, there's always a negative thing to it. I'm pretty sure we'll see more rice out FT86c, but what car haven't been riced out.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE?!

I'm getting it because I can finally properlly drift. My little gas hamster can save me gas if I want to. Most girls I know are more into the scion because it looks nice; however, my other friends (girls) are all car people (I'm not EXTREMELY educated in cars just yet) and would much rather drift than drive in a straight line.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Giccin

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE?!

I'm getting it because I can finally properlly drift. My little gas hamster can save me gas if I want to. Most girls I know are more into the scion because it looks nice; however, my other friends (girls) are all car people (I'm not EXTREMELY educated in cars just yet) and would much rather drift than drive in a straight line.

pics?

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Giccin

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE?!

I'm getting it because I can finally properlly drift. My little gas hamster can save me gas if I want to. Most girls I know are more into the scion because it looks nice; however, my other friends (girls) are all car people (I'm not EXTREMELY educated in cars just yet) and would much rather drift than drive in a straight line.

That's the thing. Because currently there's no/not much option of brand new FR car in that's in that price range, so most prefer FF scion, honda, etc. BUT if Toyota did make FT86c (200hp-ish, 2700 lbs, $22k base), I'm guessing it's gonna become somewhat of chick-car... which, I'm not complaining at all! If I see a girl driving FT86, I'll give em 2 thumbs up. Hell, if they were driving MT, I'll even bow down to them! Orz

Anyways yes, there gonna be some guys/ladies that gonna buy this car for drift & racing (like me & almost all the members here), but at the same time, if Toyota made this car 200hp-ish, 2700 lbs, $22k base car, it'll open up more different (reason) buyers.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

pics?

LOL I knew, you gonna do that!

[Zaku]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

That's the thing. Because currently there's no/not much option of brand new FR car in that's in that price range, so most prefer FF scion, honda, etc. BUT if Toyota did make FT86c (200hp-ish, 2700 lbs, $22k base), I'm guessing it's gonna become somewhat of chick-car... which, I'm not complaining at all! If I see a girl driving FT86, I'll give em 2 thumbs up. Hell, if they were driving MT, I'll even bow down to them! Orz

Totally agree with you there, I might even try to get to know them better :O girls that can drive manual. NICE