FT-86 II Concept Photos from Geneva!! Motherload of photos.

[racepauly]

Wow
I like the profile so much.
Thanks for giving me something to dream about tonight.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by AIRMAX

Jordo..

thats 1 reason a vehicle development last 4-5 years, the first 2 years is basically investigating the market for it, benchmarking the competition and putting a target demographic.... I mean, vehicle development cost tens of millions of dollars, from concept to production, engineers, tool makers, suppliers, resources are allocated..... Toyota is the world's number 1 in Automotive marketing believe it or not.

Hence, WHY this car has been in development and has been shelved for a few months during the recession/GFC.


I do understand your concerns, that people might as well spedn the extra 5K and buy the car that has 50+ hp extra on it....


But you have to also realise, if thats the case... then the Miata wouldnt exists.... the Civic Si/Type R wouldnt exists.... heck the S2000 back a decade ago wouldnt of been born.


The truth of the matter is... Toyota is targetting the S2000 demographic... basically below the 350/370Z, RX8, Genesis Coupe etc.
Those cars are in the same engine output range.

Toyota from my understanding is going to slot this between the current Miata and the 370Z... that was the plan previously... but as you've heard many times they've considered bumping up the features and engine output to make it directly compete with 370Z.... to be honest, its a 50/50 toss up at the moment. With Concept 1.0 (mark I), its easily seen to be below the 370Z... with its compact sports coupe appearance and basic exterior features.... but now seeing mark II, I think this is the result of them studying to market it against the 370Z...

again, its a toss up at the moment...... Albeit there's a few debates going on at Toyota Japan HQ on which shall be the engine power output for this.... NA or Turbo.

I'm just hoping its not like the previous Celica.... which had 134kW (170hp).... atleast make it 150kW (200hp) to make some interesting comparisons with the 370Z owners.


But the Subaru version being under development also means that Subaru will enter the coupe market.... and this model is more likely to be the turbo version to compete with the V6+ coupes.

If the price is creeping from the mid 20's into the high 20's for the base model, they absolutely should try and compete with the Z. They could beat it on price and reliablity while falling just short on power (but make up for it with TRD options) and still steal the market.

If it's just a hardtop Miata with a vestigal pair of rear seats, I don't see it really beating out the venerable roadster unless it can out lap it, which means equal handling and better power.

I'll be happy if either one of them has a turbo...

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

You keep assuming there's only market for one type of "performance" curve: Brute power.

Right now there is a complete and utter void in the compact RWD coupe market (not ragtop), not a single car there to compete, and there are plenty of people from mid 20's on up to their 50's that would be interested in an affordable, balanced, light-weight rwd coupe for use in weekend warrioring, especially if said platform comes with an amiable engine willing to be upgraded, and a solid platform that's easy to adjust and balance. And thats just the enthusiast market.

No.

There is NO market for a lightweight rattling deathtrap that can't get out of it's own way.

If this thing can't do 0-60 in under 7 seconds it better have hovercraft technology built in, because less than 1% of the people who buy one will care if it can get quickly around a bunch of cones in a parking lot.

Most "enthusiasts" couldn't tune a car to save their lives and have only a limited idea of how changing engine or chassis components affect things. They want to bolt stuff on and hit the road.

If you mean hard core car guys (who are also not into muscle cars) -- that demographic is so small, Toyota will have to make something more people can get into if they want to break even on this car.

There's a reason there are no "affordable, balanced, light-weight rwd coupe for use in weekend warrioring etc." cars to compete with -- no one wants one.

How many Mustangs do you see on the road? How many Miatas?

Yeah, exactly.

Other light, nimble, high reving cars? Gone. RSX -- gone. Celica -- Gone. MR2 -- gone. S2K -- gone.

This thing needs to reasonably quick in a straight line to sell -- no one will care if it has the fastest slalom or shortest braking distance. That will only matter if it has enough grunt to move forward too.

You can disagree if you wish, but you are defending the ghosts of cars that are no longer with us, not the merits of ones that are still in production.

But... really... how difficult a feat would that be? How fast was the S2K? Low to mid 13 second car if memory serves, and a powerplant that made a mere 210-220 bhp, right?

Toyota and Subaru just need to do the math to make the base model reasonably quick, and if they're smart, someone will offer a turbo version -- then everybody wins, everybody gets the car they want, and maybe we'll see a few less stangs and Z's on the road.

[C.44]

So are there bigger versions of those photo's ? I want something new as a wallpaper and stretching the pics doesn't do it justice imho

[AIRMAX]

Ok I had a proper sleep and played GT5, then took some virtual photos. And then compared more mark I photos to the mark II....

and I'm DEEPLY wishing and hoping they go back to mark I.

They can release mark II and lend the body to Subaru...
They can even re-use some of the body cues for the next Supra... but make the rest of the body to suit the curves..


but the mark I shape was perfectly subtle but iconic... it has European cues on it (thanks to ED2) but it also has Japanese lines (Honda-ish)... and with the lack of Toyota sports coupes in states... it should sell either way.


The mark II is nice... but the mark I was perfect.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by AIRMAX

The truth of the matter is... Toyota is targetting the S2000 demographic... basically below the 350/370Z, RX8, Genesis Coupe etc.
Those cars are in the same engine output range.

Toyota from my understanding is going to slot this between the current Miata and the 370Z... that was the plan previously... but as you've heard many times they've considered bumping up the features and engine output to make it directly compete with 370Z.... to be honest, its a 50/50 toss up at the moment. With Concept 1.0 (mark I), its easily seen to be below the 370Z... with its compact sports coupe appearance and basic exterior features.... but now seeing mark II, I think this is the result of them studying to market it against the 370Z...

Don't start bullshit rumors. This car is definitely not a 370Z competitor. Could not possibly be with 200 odd horsepower. The S2000 is a 350Z class car, So that isn't the competition either. For the record, both of those cars are well over $30k, so I really don't think that a ~$24K car is shooting for the exact same "demographic".

Please, if you are going to make those kind of statements, say "I speculate that...".

[brandon]

Had a good look and I feel that :

1) Too complicated looking/Too much details/Too messy

2) CF is sure to be not into production, so I am not looking deep into it

3) Can we just have the old red-cover tailights?

4) LED lights make it look weird. Just doesnt suit the whole thing

5) The arcs : wheels : brake rotors dimensions doesnt look compatible, the rotors size itself is ok, maybe an inch smaller wheels and smaller arcs to eliminate additional empty spaces for the smaller wheels.

6) Get the damn chrome thing above the front wheel arc off...it looks..weird and isolated. I know it might look overly like RX-8 without it, but it can be done by removing the arc bump and just make the line slide down smoothly. You can widen the arc, but there is not need to create the bump above for this awkward scenario.

7) I assume the wings are non-production


If the above happens, I am giving up my wrx for it..

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

No.

There is NO market for a lightweight rattling deathtrap that can't get out of it's own way.

If this thing can't do 0-60 in under 7 seconds it better have hovercraft technology built in, because less than 1% of the people who buy one will care if it can get quickly around a bunch of cones in a parking lot.

Most "enthusiasts" couldn't tune a car to save their lives and have only a limited idea of how changing engine or chassis components affect things. They want to bolt stuff on and hit the road.

If you mean hard core car guys (who are also not into muscle cars) -- that demographic is so small, Toyota will have to make something more people can get into if they want to break even on this car.

There's a reason there are no "affordable, balanced, light-weight rwd coupe for use in weekend warrioring etc." cars to compete with -- no one wants one.

How many Mustangs do you see on the road? How many Miatas?

Yeah, exactly.

Other light, nimble, high reving cars? Gone. RSX -- gone. Celica -- Gone. MR2 -- gone. S2K -- gone.

This thing needs to reasonably quick in a straight line to sell -- no one will care if it has the fastest slalom or shortest braking distance. That will only matter if it has enough grunt to move forward too.

You can disagree if you wish, but you are defending the ghosts of cars that are no longer with us, not the merits of ones that are still in production.

But... really... how difficult a feat would that be? How fast was the S2K? Low to mid 13 second car if memory serves, and a powerplant that made a mere 210-220 bhp, right?

Toyota and Subaru just need to do the math to make the base model reasonably quick, and if they're smart, someone will offer a turbo version -- then everybody wins, everybody gets the car they want, and maybe we'll see a few less stangs and Z's on the road.

Can you prove to me, OldSkoolToys and I (& almost other member here) are only 1% of corner freak? You claim 1% blah blah blah, so I expect 99% of ppl is 1/4 freak right? Please enlighten me w this.

How many Stang did I see? I can count w my right hand how many I saw yesterday and no, I'm not BS'ing. While how many lightweight high rev car did I see? Countless!

You have very short minded. Open up your eyes and see different cars sold around the world. US isn't the only place car been sold.

Again, I'll be waiting the 1% proof... now back to bed again...

[FT-86GOD]

Originally Posted by AIRMAX

Ok I had a proper sleep and played GT5, then took some virtual photos. And then compared more mark I photos to the mark II....
and I'm DEEPLY wishing and hoping they go back to mark I.
They can release mark II and lend the body to Subaru...
They can even re-use some of the body cues for the next Supra...

Oh..... Good.... So when is that happening...........

[brandon]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

No.

There is NO market for a lightweight rattling deathtrap that can't get out of it's own way.

If this thing can't do 0-60 in under 7 seconds it better have hovercraft technology built in, because less than 1% of the people who buy one will care if it can get quickly around a bunch of cones in a parking lot.

Most "enthusiasts" couldn't tune a car to save their lives and have only a limited idea of how changing engine or chassis components affect things. They want to bolt stuff on and hit the road.

If you mean hard core car guys (who are also not into muscle cars) -- that demographic is so small, Toyota will have to make something more people can get into if they want to break even on this car.

There's a reason there are no "affordable, balanced, light-weight rwd coupe for use in weekend warrioring etc." cars to compete with -- no one wants one.

How many Mustangs do you see on the road? How many Miatas?

Yeah, exactly.

Other light, nimble, high reving cars? Gone. RSX -- gone. Celica -- Gone. MR2 -- gone. S2K -- gone.

This thing needs to reasonably quick in a straight line to sell -- no one will care if it has the fastest slalom or shortest braking distance. That will only matter if it has enough grunt to move forward too.

You can disagree if you wish, but you are defending the ghosts of cars that are no longer with us, not the merits of ones that are still in production.

But... really... how difficult a feat would that be? How fast was the S2K? Low to mid 13 second car if memory serves, and a powerplant that made a mere 210-220 bhp, right?

Toyota and Subaru just need to do the math to make the base model reasonably quick, and if they're smart, someone will offer a turbo version -- then everybody wins, everybody gets the car they want, and maybe we'll see a few less stangs and Z's on the road.

There is nothing wrong with stangs and Z's.

Just that I am very sure FT-86 has a good market out there.

One more comment that is more factual than yours :

Toyota has sold more cars than the total amount of hair you grow in your lifetime. They can choose not to launch any car. But any car that they launch most probably will be a success.

[Calais]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

No.

There is NO market for a lightweight rattling deathtrap that can't get out of it's own way.

If this thing can't do 0-60 in under 7 seconds it better have hovercraft technology built in, because less than 1% of the people who buy one will care if it can get quickly around a bunch of cones in a parking lot.

Most "enthusiasts" couldn't tune a car to save their lives and have only a limited idea of how changing engine or chassis components affect things. They want to bolt stuff on and hit the road.

If you mean hard core car guys (who are also not into muscle cars) -- that demographic is so small, Toyota will have to make something more people can get into if they want to break even on this car.

There's a reason there are no "affordable, balanced, light-weight rwd coupe for use in weekend warrioring etc." cars to compete with -- no one wants one.

How many Mustangs do you see on the road? How many Miatas?

Yeah, exactly.

Other light, nimble, high reving cars? Gone. RSX -- gone. Celica -- Gone. MR2 -- gone. S2K -- gone.

This thing needs to reasonably quick in a straight line to sell -- no one will care if it has the fastest slalom or shortest braking distance. That will only matter if it has enough grunt to move forward too.

You can disagree if you wish, but you are defending the ghosts of cars that are no longer with us, not the merits of ones that are still in production.

But... really... how difficult a feat would that be? How fast was the S2K? Low to mid 13 second car if memory serves, and a powerplant that made a mere 210-220 bhp, right?

Toyota and Subaru just need to do the math to make the base model reasonably quick, and if they're smart, someone will offer a turbo version -- then everybody wins, everybody gets the car they want, and maybe we'll see a few less stangs and Z's on the road.

i see a shit load more miatas than mustangs on the road but here in oz its probably better to compare 370z and miata and i see a shit load more miatas thatn 370z's

the RSX, celica, mr2, and s2k i see them EVERYWHERE!

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Can you prove to me, OldSkoolToys and I (& almost other member here) are only 1% of corner freak? You claim 1% blah blah blah, so I expect 99% of ppl is 1/4 freak right? Please enlighten me w this.

How many Stang did I see? I can count w my right hand how many I saw yesterday and no, I'm not BS'ing. While how many lightweight high rev car did I see? Countless!

You have very short minded. Open up your eyes and see different cars sold around the world. US isn't the only place car been sold.

Again, I'll be waiting the 1% proof... now back to bed again...

ichi even though i agree with you, you have to see the point he is making yes he IS exaggerating the percentages BUT to the normal consumer(majority) who dont know/care about handling all they see is hp numbers and 1/4 mile times and go "oh so this car is slow im not going to get it" they dont understand power to wieght ratio or any of that, hell to be honest these people are the ones who are solely attracted to the car by its looks, and then they go make the decision based on the salespeople from ford & nissan saying "but the toyota isnt as fast as this car it dosnt have as much hp as ours, so its not as good" and they'll believe that.

[Rubedo]

Originally Posted by Calais

i see a shit load more miatas than mustangs on the road but here in oz its probably better to compare 370z and miata and i see a shit load more miatas thatn 370z's

the RSX, celica, mr2, and s2k i see them EVERYWHERE!






ichi even though i agree with you, you have to see the point he is making yes he IS exaggerating the percentages BUT to the normal consumer(majority) who dont know/care about handling all they see is hp numbers and 1/4 mile times and go "oh so this car is slow im not going to get it" they dont understand power to wieght ratio or any of that, hell to be honest these people are the ones who are solely attracted to the car by its looks, and then they go make the decision based on the salespeople from ford & nissan saying "but the toyota isnt as fast as this car it dosnt have as much hp as ours, so its not as good" and they'll believe that.

I believe the point he was trying to make was those RSX, MR2, S2K, etc have been discontinued form production because the people who are buying new cars are moving away from that demographic.

The cars that you say you see everywhere are cheap in comparison to buying a new car. And what are the ages of the people driving these cars? What are their demographics?

From what I can see the area they trying to compete with, is not the RSX, MR2, S2K area because they are no longer there. They have to please the masses, not the small percentage of fan boys.

Someone did state earlier that they could just make a turbo'd version and everyone would be happy and that sounds very plausible. But Toyota knows what they're doing and have faith in them.

I find it funny that when people name toyota cars built for performance and fail to name the Toyota Altezza/Lexus IS300.

[Calais]

Originally Posted by Rubedo

I believe the point he was trying to make was those RSX, MR2, S2K, etc have been discontinued form production because the people who are buying new cars are moving away from that demographic.

The cars that you say you see everywhere are cheap in comparison to buying a new car. And what are the ages of the people driving these cars? What are their demographics?

From what I can see the area they trying to compete with, is not the RSX, MR2, S2K area because they are no longer there. They have to please the masses, not the small percentage of fan boys.

Someone did state earlier that they could just make a turbo'd version and everyone would be happy and that sounds very plausible. But Toyota knows what they're doing and have faith in them.

I find it funny that when people name toyota cars built for performance and fail to name the Toyota Altezza/Lexus IS300.

actually they are young guys 18-25 yr olds mostly also see older guys too and the cars that you mention are cheaper than the ft will be actually are pretty damn expensive in aus, the rsx is still selling for near 30-40k, so too are some s2k's and i still see a rare mr2 hitting 30k every now and then.

yes we dont mention them because they are alot bigger in size than the ft

[FT-86GOD]

Originally Posted by Calais

ichi even though i agree with you, you have to see the point he is making yes he IS exaggerating the percentages BUT to the normal consumer(majority) who dont know/care about handling all they see is hp numbers and 1/4 mile times and go "oh so this car is slow im not going to get it" they dont understand power to wieght ratio or any of that, hell to be honest these people are the ones who are solely attracted to the car by its looks, and then they go make the decision based on the salespeople from ford & nissan saying "but the toyota isnt as fast as this car it dosnt have as much hp as ours, so its not as good" and they'll believe that.

I do agree with u a bit but power to weight ratio shows itself in a 1/4 mile anyway.....

And these days as long as Top Gear say its a great car they will go out and buy it or atleast take a test drive.....

While im on the subject... Wait until Top Gear test drive the FT-86..... that will be AWESOME!!!!! stig, slide, shit yeah..

BUT WHEN!!!?????.... Hahaha..