Help Gmookher decide AP racing Vs Stoptech BBK vs Essex SPRINT KIT

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by gmookher

I have a similar question for JRitt, as you have done above with Stoptech cost vs Sprint costs, can you kindly do the same for costs between the SPRINT AND ENDURANCE systems over 3 seasons?

oh yeah...So as an update to this thread, I am waiting to get my car back from Vortech to better determine what my final power level will be, as a tester, I know we are tweaking a bit past the base kit specs, but I really dont know yet how much...that may help determine between the two contenders for me at this point are both Essex kits, since salted winter driving is not on this cars menu.

I'm very tempted to think the Sprint will be all I will need, tho the extra surface area and pad volume of the endurance kit seem attractive as "done with it" solution. I kinda need to better understand the NVH differences between the two. I may make the effort to go drive an ENDURANCE system equipped car before making my final answer, as that is really the direction I am leaning at this point. Even tho it costs more, on this item, cost is a secondary consideration, these are BRAKES.

I will let you know once I bust out my credit card and place the order, rest assured. Its definitely looking like Essex, again, as if their advice on the ds2500s were anything but spot on for those retaining the OE calipers. (With the cryo rotors, my setup to date is solid till I manage to fry my seals at a hpde, which I rather not, hence this thread)

The cost difference between our Sprint and Endurance Systems mainly boils down to disc price.

1. The Endurance system uses the larger AP Racing disc, 325x32mm vs. 299x32mm. The cost difference on those is $249 vs. $165, so $84 per disc, or $168 per pair of discs. So two spare sets of discs for the endurance kit would be $996, vs. $660 for the Sprint (difference= $336). Again, the larger discs of the Endurance System may last a little longer. It's tough to say though, because there are so many variables involved.
2. Pads will also arguably last a little longer with the Endurance system because A) You're running the larger AP disc B) You have the option to run ducting. Nailing down the wear rate difference on these is extremely difficult though. I wouldn't venture to put a number to it since there are so many factors involved. In other words, I can't say that in the same period of time under the same conditions, you'd only go through 4 sets of pads with the Endurance setup instead of 5 with the Sprint System.

As for NVH, the only difference between the Sprint and Endurance setups is the disc hat mounting. The Endurance System is full floating, while the Sprint is fixed. The fixed discs won't rattle, whereas you will likely have some low speed rattling with the Endurance. I believe I mentioned in another post however, that the rattling on the Endurance kit can be easily removed. One of my customers took a standard set of Brembo anti-rattle clips and modified them for use on our Endurance discs. The modifications he did were simple and could be performed at home with a drill, and a file, dremel, or grinding wheel. He put one anti-rattle clip on every other attachment point (5 spring clips per disc). It took him about an hour to do the modification and install. He said the rattle was completely gone.

As for other NVH...the J Hook discs will likely cause slightly more whirring or scraping noises vs. a straight slot disc. We see this commonly on the Nissan GT-R. That said, most of those customers aren't bothered by it, and choose the J Hooks for the other benefits.
From our site:

When you cut a slot or drill a hole in a disc you impact heat transfer. The area around the slot or hole acts as a cool spot when the disc heats up, which is not ideal. Ideally, heat is distributed uniformly around the disc so it can be hit with the cooling air that is pumping through the disc, radiate outwards away from the disc, etc. Cool spots create stress risers and increase the likelihood of the disc cracking. They also cause the face of the disc to distort unevenly, leading to uneven pad deposits, vibration, and judder.

During exhaustive R&D testing, AP's J Hook design was found to create a constant pathway of evenly distorted material on the face of the disc. The hooks are spaced out as evenly as possible both around the circumference of the disc, as well as from the inside edge (where the hat attaches) to outer edge, with a slight overlap to promote even heat distribution/distortion. In addition to reducing cracking, the even heating of the disc also helps provide an even transfer layer of pad material on the disc when you bed them in.

Additionally, the J Hook slot pattern produces a greater number of leading edges for the pads to bite into vs. a traditional curved slot pattern. While this may lead to slightly more whirring or scraping noises from the discs when applying the brakes, the benefits of more even heat distribution, less propensity to crack, cleaner pad material transfer during bed-in, and more bite far outweigh the slight increase in NVH for the serious enthusiast.

[gmookher]

anyone got a gopro and can post a video of just what we mean by rattling or NVH for that matter the differences, as may appear on video, between the sprint and endurance? perhaps an IN car video would be of value? I guess i am looking to understand how significant it is, before I place an order for the Endurance setup, which is how I am leaning.

That may help me, and others, who are between the two kits, endurance 'unmodified'- what is it like without brembo HW to mitigate it vs sprint in the car, day to day?

Clearly over a few seasons of useage, the operating costs of either system work just fine. Not enough price difference to steer me one way or the other, between the two.

Same with the acquisition cost - seems I have decided that the other vendors, Wilwood,Stoptech,Brembo etc, some cost as much some cost less, none can offer the same engineering superiority as far as weight, finish, or design- stuff like J hooks
either pricepoint, Sprint or Endurance will work and is in line with other offerings

Thanks for the posted reply and clarification @JRitt it will be other factors that help finalize the upcoming decision.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by JRitt

As for other NVH...the J Hook discs will likely cause slightly more whirring or scraping noises vs. a straight slot disc. We see this commonly on the Nissan GT-R. That said, most of those customers aren't bothered by it, and choose the J Hooks for the other benefits.
From our site:

To expand on this, this is exactly what you hear.

If you are driving:
- Next to a curb or wall
- Window open
- Radio off
- Cruising at a steady speed (slow enough to not really hear the engine or exhaust)

Then you will hear a faint "rolling without turning the pedals on a bicycle" sound.

If you have the windows closed, are accelerating, or have the radio on, you won't hear it at all.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by gmookher

anyone got a gopro and can post a video of just what we mean by rattling or NVH for that matter the differences, as may appear on video, between the sprint and endurance? perhaps an IN car video would be of value? I guess i am looking to understand how significant it is, before I place an order for the Endurance setup, which is how I am leaning.

That may help me, and others, who are between the two kits, endurance 'unmodified'- what is it like without brembo HW to mitigate it vs sprint in the car, day to day?

Clearly over a few seasons of useage, the operating costs of either system work just fine. Not enough price difference to steer me one way or the other, between the two.

Same with the acquisition cost - seems I have decided that the other vendors, Wilwood,Stoptech,Brembo etc, some cost as much some cost less, none can offer the same engineering superiority as far as weight, finish, or design- stuff like J hooks
either pricepoint, Sprint or Endurance will work and is in line with other offerings

Thanks for the posted reply and clarification @JRitt it will be other factors that help finalize the upcoming decision.

I'd be more than happy to *try* get you a clip of the NVH, but it's really negligible on the sprint kit.

[JRitt]

One more thing...dust boots. I see so much chatter about this topic. People really get caught up in it, and I think it's just because they don't understand what exactly dust boots are and what they do. Just to be clear on this topic...dust boots and seals are two different things. All calipers have seals to keep the fluid in the piston bores, behind the pistons. The CP8350 has special high temperature silicone seals designed to resist track temperatures. Many other calipers do not have that feature. A dust boot is just a little bit of rubber material...think of it like an umbrella or rubber rain boots...to keep debris out of the piston bores (see the red caliper pistons below). Unfortunately, if you set fire to an umbrella (aka drive your brakes on a track), it's not of much use anymore!

High temp seals in the AP Racing CP8350


Bellows type dust boots in a different aftermarket caliper. You can see that these pistons have a groove with a seal, but they also have a dust boot (umbrella) attached to them, which surround the area of the piston opening.


Most people who track their car destroy dust boots very quickly. I've seen it happen in a single track session. Most of those people replace them the first time in fear that something terrible is going to happen without them. Eventually they get tired of messing with them however, and just don't bother. IMO, if you are tracking your car and actually want to maintain your dust boots, it's going to be a lot more work, including more frequent caliper rebuilds than if you don't have them. Here is some discussion on the topic. Notice the feedback from those who have actually gone through it and burnt them up, not from those just bench racing.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...ust-boots.html

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/9483...it-pic-inside/

http://my350z.com/forum/brakes-and-s...ack-event.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...-burnt-up.html

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-tir...t-diagram.html

Here's what a dust boot looks like after seeing track temperatures...oops!






Here's a set of dust boots off a 350Z that had been tracked.


Now how much good is a ragged piece of burnt rubber doing you after you've taken your brakes to track temperatures? Answer= None. To stick with my umbrella analogy...an umbrella full of holes isn't of much use, is it?

From our website:

Not all piston seals are created equal. The average seal is not designed to withstand the extreme temperatures that a caliper experiences when driven hard on a racetrack. When exposed to high temperatures they become brittle and fall apart. That's probably why when you took your car to the track, your OEM calipers wept like your mom did when you left for college.
Additionally, street car calipers typically have a bellows-type dust boot installed in a small groove near the end of each caliper piston. As the piston extends, the dust boot creates a barrier against debris accumulating on the sides of the pistons (shown below). While this feature is great for your grocery-getter, it's not very desirable for your track car.

The CP8350's resilient high temperature seals allow the caliper to run longer at elevated temperatures between service intervals. That means fewer leaky calipers and less frequent rebuilds. Unless you plan on driving through dirt, debris, or road salt in your track car, dust boots are pointless. Even if you do plan on driving your car in these environments, dust boots will almost immediately become burned and brittle on the track, and can even create a melted mess on the back of your brake pads. The remnants of the boots can actually get pulled down into the caliper on the sides of the pistons, potentially damaging your seals. Friends don't let friends drive track cars with dust boots.

Hopefully that clears up the dust boot thing a bit. :happy0180:

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'd be more than happy to *try* get you a clip of the NVH, but it's really negligible on the sprint kit.

great, lets try and get both sprint and endurance videos,I bet there will be alot of 86 owners who track their cars that end up with one of these two systems- esp if driving snow passes isnt your thing for this rwd, if tracking is your think, look no further than AP

can I see a volunteer for Endurance Kit Video?

if you live in snow country and drive year round, I think Stoptech would be my choice next, but with more size penalty, less weight savings. And dust boots that will burn up anyways if you track them, despite their claims, many reports of burnt up dust boots on ST40s, just do a quick search

[Captain Insano]

I live in snow country and I think I am going with the sprint kit when I buy!

[JRitt]

On the topic of painted calipers...
We all love pretty red calipers. They look great, and cause oooo's and aaah's among our fellow enthusiasts. When they get thrashed on the track, they don't look so pretty however. STI, Evo, and 350Z Track Model owners refer to their OEM units as Brownbo's. Below is what they look like after a solid track beating.

In the industry we use the word color shift...sounds nicer than burnt or BBQ'd.
What starts as red gloss ---> drab maroon with cream logo---> finally to poo brown
What starts as copper gloss ---> brown
What starts as black gloss ---> drab gray with yellow logo
What starts as yellow gloss ---> hideous brown
I can't remember what blue turns into...never sold that many blue anyway.

These were red



This was gold...you can see the original color on the caliper mounting tabs.


This was shiny black, and those hats were anodized black...


These were actually red at one point...believe it or not!


Whether you wear them as a badge of honor or not, they still look like doodoo. So if you're shopping for brake kits based on looks and you plan to track them, don't expect them to stay pretty! This isn't specific to one manufacturer...it's just an inevitable fact of painted or powder coated calipers run on the track. They don't react well to searing temps.

Our anodized calipers just go from ugly to uglier , but they don't chip and flake.

[gmookher]

no doubt, hard ano is where its at...

[JRitt]

On the topic of 'the occasional track day'...

I've had customers tell me a million times, "I'm going to do the occasional track day, so I don't need anything too over the top."

There is no such thing as 'the occasional track day' with regards to brakes. Either you will take your brakes on the track, and they will see the extreme temperatures that occur on the track...or you will not take your brakes on the track. Either your brakes will have the capacity/capability to deal with tnose track temperatures, or they will not. That holds true, regardless of whether or not you plan to visit the track 20 times a year or once a year.

If you don't have the right brake setup (pads, fluid, or even a brake kit), you will likely have brake-related issues, and it will potentially ruin your day...whether it's your first track day, or your 14th. It does not matter. Brakes are one of those situations where you prepare for the worst, and reap the benefits by enjoying your time at the track. The alternative is to go light, then spend your track time ending sessions early, crawling around under the car, bleeding brakes, missing sessions, and cursing up a storm.

Sorry...had to get that one off my chest.

[Captain Insano]

This thread is EPIC. In a good way!

[BRZranger]

This video review features Full Blown motors turbo'd FRS (9 lbs boost 320whp) and AP brakes (not sure if sprint or endurance).

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by brzranger

This video review features Full Blown motors turbo'd FRS (9 lbs boost 320whp) and AP brakes (not sure if sprint or endurance).

Thanks for the link! Yes, that car has our Sprint system...so that should give you an idea of what our 'smaller' system can handle without issue. Matt comments that he really likes them at 6:35 in the vid.

[BRZranger]

In his previous review of the FRS and modified FRS, the oem brakes were still a problem in the modified FRS.