FR-S vs. Used Sports Car Market

[Exage]

Originally Posted by fatoni

they are flexible because of the nature of the steel. they dont want them flexible. they just dont want them brittle either. you cant have both as far as the materials are concerned. thats why they go through the trouble of forging things and designing structurally sound components.

Yes. However a forged crank will still flex some, but is inherently stronger due to the forging process and because that is a necessity of that certain engine design.

flex in a crankshaft is just robbing power from the motor just like flex in a chassis is adding a vague feeling to the suspension.

I don't disagree with your statement.

[u2b]qEkErF51Uxg[/u2b]

This is a bit extreme however @0:13 you can understand the need for this container ship to flex in rough weather. I know it's not exactly the same, but part of the concept can be applied to certain components of a cars chassis.

Additionally this will come down the the design of the chassis and cost of said materials. It's all about the money, as always...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Marrk

Understood.

But I was responding to your original statement: "a factory ECU tuned to almost no margin of error for temp or fuel differences." If the factory is f.-ing up the engineering, then that ain't good.

EDIT: Unless you mean that owners are tuning a factory ECU and making it whack . . . ?

Basically the factory tune sounds like it is pretty tight. And small user tweaks can have large negative consequences. In the old days, the factory tunes were pretty conservative and it was pretty easy to pick up power. But when these STI's need a re-flash just because you put a low-restriction exhaust, that would indicate that they are already as lean as is safe for 'normal' conditions. (This may be for fuel economy as well as emissions.)

From the sounds of it the newer stock STI tunes are not mod-friendly without appropriate ECU rework to re-match the fueling to the adjusted airflow.

Now add to that, that some of the people trying to do that ECU rework are completely new to the tuning game, and just trying what someone posted on the internet. Recipe for disaster.

And also COBB claims that the tune can't be detected if users swap back in the stock base map. Now these people may be claiming that they never tuned their car and it is all the factory's fault...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Exage

Yes. However a forged crank will still flex some, but is inherently stronger due to the forging process and because that is a necessity of that certain engine design.



I don't disagree with your statement.

[u2b]qEkErF51Uxg[/u2b]

This is a bit extreme however @0:13 you can understand the need for this container ship to flex in rough weather. I know it's not exactly the same, but part of the concept can be applied to certain components of a cars chassis.

Additionally this will come down the the design of the chassis and cost of said materials. It's all about the money, as always...

everything is going to flex some but that doesnt mean they want it to. my point is that it isnt something they want but since it exists with in the world they work in they are forced to deal with it. you can bet that if someone could build a product with less flex and more durability they would. its like saying that race tires are designed not to last long. just because they dont last long doesnt mean that people dont want them to

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It's interesting how the 2JZGTE (also with cast pistons) has this reputation of being indestructible. But lately in the Supra community, as the price in Canada for Mk4's has come down and getting into the hands of noobs who want to 'tune' them, there are way more reports of failures.

Users can always out-stupid smart engineering.

Yes!

And forged pistons will never solve this issue!!!

[Exage]

I'm under the impression that you and I are going back and forth on this subject and yet we're strangely on the same page... I agree with all of your provided statements.

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont think there is any reason why anybody would want a flexible chassis unless you are talking about safety issues and junk like that

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Can't have all the chassis been stiff. Need to have flexible area to release/damper the shocks.

Originally Posted by fatoni

care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by fatoni

they are flexible because of the nature of the steel. they dont want them flexible. they just dont want them brittle either.

Originally Posted by fatoni

my point is that it [flex] isnt something they want but since it exists with in the world they work in they are forced to deal with it. you can bet that if someone could build a product with less flex and more durability they would.

I'm going to insert something into this last quote of yours "you can bet that if someone could build a product with less flex and more durability (Insert: with the same cost) they would."

I think you managed to elaborate with my quote selection!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by fatoni

everything is going to flex some but that doesnt mean they want it to. my point is that it isnt something they want but since it exists with in the world they work in they are forced to deal with it. you can bet that if someone could build a product with less flex and more durability they would. its like saying that race tires are designed not to last long. just because they dont last long doesnt mean that people dont want them to

For some things, that's true, but not for the example you quoted. They could have made that ship very rigid, they just learned with early steel ships that it's a really really bad idea...

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Basically the factory tune sounds like it is pretty tight. And small user tweaks can have large negative consequences. In the old days, the factory tunes were pretty conservative and it was pretty easy to pick up power. But when these STI's need a re-flash just because you put a low-restriction exhaust, that would indicate that they are already as lean as is safe for 'normal' conditions. (This may be for fuel economy as well as emissions.)

From the sounds of it the newer stock STI tunes are not mod-friendly without appropriate ECU rework to re-match the fueling to the adjusted airflow.

Now add to that, that some of the people trying to do that ECU rework are completely new to the tuning game, and just trying what someone posted on the internet. Recipe for disaster.

And also COBB claims that the tune can't be detected if users swap back in the stock base map. Now these people may be claiming that they never tuned their car and it is all the factory's fault...

Coming from motorcycles, where we used to call a "reflash" a "remap," I never understood car guys who wanted to monkey with intake and exhaust parameters without then putting the car on a dyno and custom tuning the fuel injection map. Seems like lunacy to me.

On another note, some manufacturers over-build their engines, so you can extract quite a bit more power out of them before you blow something up. Honda motorcycles come to mind as an example. But I guess the Subaru boxer is brought to market pretty close to its tolerance limits.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by tree fingers

Short answer: Detonation.

If you start finding a lot of oil in your intercooler, there's a good sign you're experiencing DET.

AOS
Good, SAFE, Tune [Especially on certain model STI's. The consensus is that the MY07 tune is junk]
Oil Pressure Gauge
Oil Temp Gauge

Although, since the FR-S won't be getting the 2.5 litre motor, I don't know if anyone should be worried about it.




To be fair, there are EJ25's that have experienced ring land failure on OEM tunes.



Torque. The amount of torque the EJ257 produces is shocking for its size.

So you want to compare a engine with boost to a NA engine? The 2.5RS engine would say Subaru will be fine. If you are worried get another car.

[Matador]

Man, it is impossible for any thread on this board to stay on topic, isn't it?

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Man, it is impossible for any thread on this board to stay on topic, isn't it?

After 3~4 page go off-top. Can't help it

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

After 3~4 page go off-top. Can't help it

Yeah we did pretty good compared to other threads.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Yeah we did pretty good compared to other threads.

[tree fingers]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

So you want to compare a engine with boost to a NA engine? The 2.5RS engine would say Subaru will be fine. If you are worried get another car.

At first i had no idea what you were talking about, but then i realised that i neglected to include the '7' at the tail end of ej25. I wasnt referring to the n/a motor. Sorry for the confusion.

I drive a stock pistoned ~400whp sti. Im brave enough to drive an n/a 2 litre boxer. Hahah..

[WolfpackS2k]

Someone here in town that I vaguely know had an '08 STI and blew the engine. The dealership refused to cover the replacement cost and accused the owner of running the engine low on oil. Which was never the case.

That's enough for me to be leary of Subaru. That sort of thing is the last thing I want to think about when I'm hop lapping around some race track...