BRZ vs FRS - The Debate

[ill roller]

Originally Posted by Kire

the frs is not anymore "back to basics" than the brz. both are essentially the same car. yeah, so the brz has a few more features, but so what? there are stuff in the frs that don't add to the driving experience. for example, it's got AC, cruise control, power steering, power windows and door locks, traction/stability control, useless backseats, etc. all these stuff not only do not add to the driving experience, but they also add weight. the bottom line is that the frs/brz are road cars with amenities that does not serve solely the purpose of enhancing the driving experience. it's designed not only to provide you with pleasure behind the wheels, but also to get you from point A to point B in relative comfort in a package that's relatively convenient and practical for day to day automotive needs. the whole "back to basics" and "pure driver's car" labels are nothing but marketing. the frs/brz is not a lotus elise/exige. it's a compromised car. imo, the frs lack features not because scion is trying to make the car more of a driver's car. instead, its goal is to try to keep the price tag under $25K because that is what the demographic scion is trying to attract is willing or able to pay. choosing between the frs and brz is pretty much akin to choosing between a civic DX and EX--one has slightly more features, but they are both essentially civics and at the end of the day, it all boils down to "are you willing to pay X dollars more for X amount more features?"

Well said... It really just comes down to what features you want, what you're willing to spend, and which car you think looks better. I ordered a BRZ not only because I'm getting a deal on it, but I think the front bumper is way better, headlights look way better, interior looks much nicer, it has HIDs, and I think the resale value will be better.

Originally Posted by dem00n

I find it odd how some say the Automatic gearbox offers less than the MT, in a sense it offers a lot more. First you have automatic mode and its settings, traction on/off and sport. Then you have two ways to change gears, using the paddles or pushing the shifter up and down. Then you have use of using sport and traction on/off. I find driving in sport with pure automatic to be quite different then driving in automatic with sport off, same as i do finding using the paddles with sport on and sport off. I think i got the bargain for getting such a nice automatic trans for under 30k. If you ask me, i'm having more fun playing around with this niffy transmission then i did in my old 5 speed and dare i say more in the manual 6 speed.

Oh and you wanna discuss the performance between manual and automatic? Barley matters in this car, its 200 HP and none of us are going to be really time racing against each other. The small difference on the track between an FRS automatic and FRS manual would only truly matter with whos driving it if you ask me.

The 2nd best part is that after driving around with this transmission for over 3 months; i'm still learning more about it every week. Its really something to behold, if you get the MT or the AT on either the FRS/BRZ then you simply have made a great choice. There is no wrong with either cars or either ways of transmission. Its maaaaaad!
Ha...i'm done for the day.

To be honest, hearing things like this makes me wonder why the car even came in automatic... You're entitled to your opinion, but I think it's completely flawed. You have fun with your automatic, but that's not what a driver's car is about. A driver's car is about you the driver being totally connected to the car at all times, feeling the car, and controlling every aspect of the car. While you can shift with the auto, you must admit that it's not the same as a manual. No clutch, no shift feeling, not the same feeling behind the wheel. This is why most of the true driver's cars are availiable in manual transmission only.

Originally Posted by dem00n

Then why am i having more fun? What full potential is there for a car like this? Your talking mere milliseconds. This is a simple machine made to do well on corners and holding drifts, not go on into corners breaking from 200MPH like a race car. I think you guys are simply over looking the whole driving experience. Its not simply how many techniques you use to achieve your shifts but more so on it all feels and connects, which this car has on either transmissions. We cannot simply base the whole driving experience on engaging and disengaging a clutch, that like saying sex was no fun because you didn't do oral.

"extract the full potential of a true "driver's car"" I'm sorry but am i the only one here seeing that as pure bullshit?
What full potential? What drivers car? What makes this a drivers car? I could call a Honda Accord a drivers car if i bought it in MT, thats what your turning it off as.

What about all the cars without a clutch, all those modern automated transmission, are they not driver cars?

It's made for holding drifts, but you can't really drift with an automatic. Sure you can kick the back end out, but holding drifts and connecting turns will not really work with an automatic. Maybe if you're messing around in the snow or something, but going to a track and trying to link a course without being able to clutch kick or proper e-brake? Good luck.

What it seems to come down to is that this is an enthusiast's car, and you don't seem to be much of an enthusiast. You may like cars and have fun driving yours, but any real enthusiast, anyone with a love for driving/learning lines/learning techniques/improving driver skill/mastering car control would never defend an automatic transmission on anything but a comfy land yacht. Automatic transmissions have their purpose in daily commuters. If your FRS is just a daily commuter for you, then by all means get it in automatic, but if you like hitting the track, twisty roads, drifting, whatever, you'd be foolish to not get the manual, and even more foolish to defend it.

As for the modern sportscars with automatic transmissions, drivers would argue that this is the downfall of the driver's car. Too many cars these days are being dumbed down by computer assists and automatic transmissions in an attempt to make them more easily accessible to the average person, and more controllable on the street. But this is not what us drivers want. We want to tame the car and control every aspect of the car, and that was the point of this car... To bring an affordable RWD car back to fill the void in the market that emphasizes driver control and feel.

[naikaidriver]

Jesus...
To call some of you guys "militant" would be an understatement. More like the Al Qaeda of the motoring world would be more accurate.

From the way some of you sound you are a heartbeat away from setting fire to sports cars with an auto.

Automotive enthusiasts are a dying breed in an age of hybrids, emissions regulation, safety requirements and tree huggers. WE are the minority in the automotive consumer market as a whole and you guys want to draw dividing lines between us? Great move.

Toyota and Subaru came together to provide a fantastic, affordable sports car that purists can buy with a manual and the ability to turn off all the electronic nannies in 5 seconds and you STILL feel the need that to belittle people who contribute to this VERY narrow market by purchasing other versions of these cars simply because their needs/wants are different from your own. I just don't understand your logic or how you people feel that you are contributing to anything other than hate and discontent in our own community.

I find it as deeply saddening as I do troublesome for enthusiasts as a whole.

Scott

[whaap]

Originally Posted by gmookher

BRZ has more features and better value
how can you not buy a car that lets you adjust how far away the head light beams are in real time from the drivers seat via a dial???

There was only one feature the BRZ had that I would like to have had and that is their leather interior on the Limited model. The only problem with that was the fact I had to also include navigation which I didn't want and a spoiler which is rice as far as I'm concerned. If I end up not being happy with the interior of my FR-S there's a nice set of leathers produced by Katzkins that I can always buy.

[ill roller]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

Jesus...
To call some of you guys "militant" would be an understatement. More like the Al Qaeda of the motoring world would be more accurate.

From the way some of you sound you are a heartbeat away from setting fire to sports cars with an auto.

Automotive enthusiasts are a dying breed in an age of hybrids, emissions regulation, safety requirements and tree huggers. WE are the minority in the automotive consumer market as a whole and you guys want to draw dividing lines between us? Great move.

Toyota and Subaru came together to provide a fantastic, affordable sports car that purists can buy with a manual and the ability to turn off all the electronic nannies in 5 seconds and you STILL feel the need that to belittle people who contribute to this VERY narrow market by purchasing other versions of these cars simply because their needs/wants are different from your own. I just don't understand your logic or how you people feel that you are contributing to anything other than hate and discontent in our own community.

I find it as deeply saddening as I do troublesome for enthusiasts as a whole.

Scott

Everything you said seems ridiculous to me... Automotive enthusiasts are not a dying breed, and hybrids have nothing to do with that. I have friends with manual transmission hybrids that modify them, take them to the track regularly, and beat the shit out of them, does this sound like something someone with an automatic sportscar would do? I think they would understand the concept of a driver's car more than some people on here seem to.

No one is belittling anyone, it's just a difference of opinion on the matter. Sales of these cars seem to be proving that it's not a very narrow market. My personal opinion though is that the car should have only been offered in manual transmission, not unlike the S2000. It weeds out all the people that want something "cute" that they can commute in and think they're a race car driver while doing it, and offers the car up to people to truly experience everything the car has to offer. Call it what you want, but there is no arguing the simple fact that an automatic car is not a driver's car... As far as you being saddened by it, grow some balls and stand behind what you believe in. Why should other's opinions affect you?

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by ill roller

Why should other's opinions affect you?

Because people like you would use YOUR opinions to limit what other people can or should drive as you just stated in your retort. I have a big problem when people use only their opinion instead of understanding and education to make or otherwise attempt to influence the decisions of others.

My statement about you types being militant is 100% accurate in that regard and your continuing statements do nothing more than prove my point so in that regard I should say "thanks".

And before you claim that enthusiasts are not the minority any further, I strongly suggest you look at aggregate sales numbers for vehicles sold in the United States and how little sports car ownership is represented in new car sales.

Scott

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

This little statement proves my point perfectly about people like you.

Thank you and I have nothing more to say on this.

Scott

Originally Posted by SupraLove

If I could thank this a million times, I would.

Thanks.

[ill roller]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

Because people like you would use YOUR opinions to limit what other people can or should drive as you just stated in your retort. I have a big problem when people use only their opinion instead of understanding and education to make or otherwise attempt to influence the decisions of others.

My statement about you types being militant is 100% accurate in that regard and your continuing statements do nothing more than prove my point so in that regard I should say "thanks".

And before you claim that enthusiasts are not the minority any further, I strongly suggest you look at aggregate sales numbers for vehicles sold in the United States and how little sports car ownership is represented in new car sales.

Scott

I am completely incapable of limiting what you do in any facet of your life, that's just comical to hear you say otherwise. I'm not attempting to influence anyone, and I'd say I'm fairly well educated, all I'm doing is sharing an opinion in a debate.

Sports cars are an unnecessary luxury, so of course their sales will never be equivalent to that of sedans, suv's, or anything else that is purposeful and useful in all areas and climates. Sports cars are just toys, lower numbers as compared to any other type of cars are to be expected. Hell, most people I know with sports cars own them as a second or third car just for occasional use... But to say car enthusiasts are a dying breed is just wrong.

[dem00n]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

Jesus...
To call some of you guys "militant" would be an understatement. More like the Al Qaeda of the motoring world would be more accurate.

From the way some of you sound you are a heartbeat away from setting fire to sports cars with an auto.

Automotive enthusiasts are a dying breed in an age of hybrids, emissions regulation, safety requirements and tree huggers. WE are the minority in the automotive consumer market as a whole and you guys want to draw dividing lines between us? Great move.

Toyota and Subaru came together to provide a fantastic, affordable sports car that purists can buy with a manual and the ability to turn off all the electronic nannies in 5 seconds and you STILL feel the need that to belittle people who contribute to this VERY narrow market by purchasing other versions of these cars simply because their needs/wants are different from your own. I just don't understand your logic or how you people feel that you are contributing to anything other than hate and discontent in our own community.

I find it as deeply saddening as I do troublesome for enthusiasts as a whole.

Scott

I'm wondering the same thing, i guess minimal differences don't make you a car enthusiastic. Clearly if you buy an automatic you don't know anything about cars. Clearly if you buy a manual your a track king and you use to compare notes with Senna.

[wu_dot_com]

Originally Posted by Hanakuso

4 pounds is still 4 pounds of "unnecessary" weight. I'm not trying to say FRS>BRZ because quite frankly, it's probably not even noticeable to 99% of us. When he mentioned creature comforts do not degrade driving performance, I thought to myself they definitely can. (Ex: A/C, luxury items, etc)


You're looking at it with the FRS plus shipping vs the BRZ without shipping. Plus for myself I got the FRS with a $1000 rebate, while BRZ was extremely hard to get and mark ups were everywhere.

actually the difference in price was the MSRP price off both website. you dont have to take my word for it, go check for yourself. FRS=24955, brz preimum = 25495...

also both scion and subaru have their own markup, so its really a moo point to argue. meanwhile the 1k rebate at the beggining was only avaliable to some, and many dealerships still would not honor it.

[slowbrz]

Originally Posted by wu_dot_com

meanwhile the 1k rebate at the beggining was only avaliable to some, and many dealerships still would not honor it.

dont mislead people. the rebate comes from the manufacturer, not the dealership. as long as you buy your new frs from a dealer that gets it from the manufacturer, the manufacturer will honor it.

[Hanakuso]

Originally Posted by wu_dot_com

actually the difference in price was the MSRP price off both website. you dont have to take my word for it, go check for yourself. FRS=24955, brz preimum = 25495...

also both scion and subaru have their own markup, so its really a moo point to argue. meanwhile the 1k rebate at the beggining was only avaliable to some, and many dealerships still would not honor it.

So much false information in 1 post

[ill roller]

Originally Posted by dem00n

I'm wondering the same thing, i guess minimal differences don't make you a car enthusiastic. Clearly if you buy an automatic you don't know anything about cars. Clearly if you buy a manual your a track king and you use to compare notes with Senna.

See, now you're just being a ****... No one ever said either of those things.

You people need to pull your heads out of your asses and learn to read. Once you do that, learn to not be butt-hurt by things you read on the internet.

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by ill roller

Everything you said seems ridiculous to me... Automotive enthusiasts are not a dying breed, and hybrids have nothing to do with that. I have friends with manual transmission hybrids that modify them, take them to the track regularly, and beat the shit out of them, does this sound like something someone with an automatic sportscar would do? I think they would understand the concept of a driver's car more than some people on here seem to.

No one is belittling anyone, it's just a difference of opinion on the matter. Sales of these cars seem to be proving that it's not a very narrow market. My personal opinion though is that the car should have only been offered in manual transmission, not unlike the S2000. It weeds out all the people that want something "cute" that they can commute in and think they're a race car driver while doing it, and offers the car up to people to truly experience everything the car has to offer. Call it what you want, but there is no arguing the simple fact that an automatic car is not a driver's car... As far as you being saddened by it, grow some balls and stand behind what you believe in. Why should other's opinions affect you?

opinions are like a**holes,everyone has one and they all generally "stink!"
that said,i have driven both and i can tell ya,you are still a man with balls if ya drive the ''slush box",because the japanese did a wonderful job with this tranny,tons of fun,and "still" handles AND drives like the great little sports
coupe it is! it would appear you are trying to provoke an argument over some silly ass fixation with sticks!.why? (maybe you consider the stick as a"phallic" symbol?) mine's a "slush" and i love the f**kin' thing,and i HAVE been driving "stick" for over 40 years! the car is a "fantastic" driving machine with ''BOTH" transmissions! period!

[ill roller]

Ah, I see what's going on here, I'm talking with a bunch of geriatrics... Did your grandkids teach you how to use their computer so you could converse with the youth market that your car was intended for? It all makes sense now... My dad is 65, and he always tries to justify his switch to automatic cars with excuses, but we both know it's just cause he's old and lazy. But then again, you don't see him driving around a kids car, or bickering about it on forums.

Wasn't trying to provoke an argument, but if throwing insults my way makes you feel better then we can just go back and forth.