Scion FR-S Cover Article in new Road and Track Magazine

[SUB-FT86]

I'm glad you finally overstand what I was saying.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by Ryuu0u

Well im fine with the mark for the FRS to be around 200hp for a 2.0 since it kinda falls into the realm of small and sporty like the s2k and miata. The GC having a turbo and only putting that much out seems weak for a turbo engine to me. Yeah there is a growing aftermarket for the 2.0 GC but reading some GenCoupe forums there is a huge trade off when even touching it. Ive read ppl having problems just flashing the ecu, and some having dropped from 20ish to 12ish mpg just from small mods and unknown reasons. From what ive read you cant even touch above 350ish with out first redoing the internals since they are made of glass. $11.5k just for 400whp is probably on the shallow side of a 2.0t built engine when considering Ive read up on some S2k's that have made 500hp with stock internals(i cant vouch for reliability but you can see some running fine on s2ki). Not saying the 2.0 GC is a bad car but it just needs more attention compared to other engines; id rather get the v6 anyways and save some headache. I really considered a GC for my next car but after reading some of their forums id rather w8 for the FRS where i would maybe anticipate some quirks but i would not really expect them.

Wow misinformation overload. Whenever you start altering your car from factory settings theres a chance of problems. Flashing the ECU is one of the easiest things to do, and easiest things to screw up.

Factory 2.0t GC's are getting anywhere from mid-teens to mid-twenties. From what I've read on their forums, there is some kind of issue going on that's affecting their fuel economy even before they start tinkering with them.

Both the 4B11T and G4KC engines are more than capable of handling over 400whp before having to crack them open.

$11.5k for JUST the built longblock? You can get a built Evo shortblock capable over over 800whp for under $5k and a ridiculous head to match it for under $3500. You're talking about race ready applications though, total overkill for ~400whp. Hell my 4G63 longblock fully built only cost about $5500 in total and it handles over 500whp.

The GC2.0 is definitely a cool little car, I'm getting closer and closer to buying one to hold me over till a new RX is released. I want something new and cheap, the current sports cars aren't all too exciting.

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I'm glad you finally overstand what I was saying.

I'm glad you see the error of comparing two cars based solely on their similar package name, while ignoring the cheaper version of the cheaper car just to prove an incorrect point. Now lets put that behind us and get back on topic.

:happy0180:

[Dimman]

WTF? Arguing about Hyundai trim levels involving a dollar/torque figure??? You guys need a break or something...

Deslock: My assertion of their profitability at sub $20k is pretty much pulled from my ass. I'm getting impatient for more news, and am trying hard not to rant about Scion, which is what I usually do when it's slow...

But take a base Impreza at $17,500, delete 2 doors and all the stuff involved, awd trans and components, then add DI, speculative Yamaha heads, rwd 6 speed (cost should be less than the AWD 5 speed) and LSD. All at the manufacturers cost, not the dealers real cost, (and certainly not the dealers invoice...). So if they could add those mechanical components for the manufacturers cost of $2500, (includes some of the deleted components too) that's $20K with whatever margin they get off of an Impreza.

So the big key is the tooling for the 'all-new' chassis. But that can be spread out over more than just this car, depending on what they are going to do with it in the future (Lexus IS?), and how long they will keep using it (Subaru tends to keep chassis for a LONG time).

I've heard that Toyota took an early financial hit on the Prius deliberately to help boost their green image. They could do it for their performance image now if they wanted to.

Instead of a multi-million dollar marketing campaign (that will probably suck if the Jack Hollis videos are any indication...), and a dealer cash cow, just make it awesome and cheap so it actually gets to the masses that can market it for them, on its actual performance merits.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by Dimman

WTF? Arguing about Hyundai trim levels involving a dollar/torque figure??? You guys need a break or something...

Deslock: My assertion of their profitability at sub $20k is pretty much pulled from my ass. I'm getting impatient for more news, and am trying hard not to rant about Scion, which is what I usually do when it's slow...

But take a base Impreza at $17,500, delete 2 doors and all the stuff involved, awd trans and components, then add DI, speculative Yamaha heads, rwd 6 speed (cost should be less than the AWD 5 speed) and LSD. All at the manufacturers cost, not the dealers real cost, (and certainly not the dealers invoice...). So if they could add those mechanical components for the manufacturers cost of $2500, (includes some of the deleted components too) that's $20K with whatever margin they get off of an Impreza.

So the big key is the tooling for the 'all-new' chassis. But that can be spread out over more than just this car, depending on what they are going to do with it in the future (Lexus IS?), and how long they will keep using it (Subaru tends to keep chassis for a LONG time).

I've heard that Toyota took an early financial hit on the Prius deliberately to help boost their green image. They could do it for their performance image now if they wanted to.

Instead of a multi-million dollar marketing campaign (that will probably suck if the Jack Hollis videos are any indication...), and a dealer cash cow, just make it awesome and cheap so it actually gets to the masses that can market it for them, on its actual performance merits.

I truly hope Toyota is willing to sell these things at a loss. That would show me/us that they're trying to get their foot back in the door even at their own expense. (Not to mention more money in my pocket ) However, I don't really see them selling these for $20k, $23k would be fair, but I have a feeling they're going to be starting at $25k.

Are Scion dealerships allowed to mark up the sticker price?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

I truly hope Toyota is willing to sell these things at a loss. That would show me/us that they're trying to get their foot back in the door even at their own expense. (Not to mention more money in my pocket ) However, I don't really see them selling these for $20k, $23k would be fair, but I have a feeling they're going to be starting at $25k.

Are Scion dealerships allowed to mark up the sticker price?

At the same time it's a little bit insulting to us common people that they spent 9 freakin' years developing the insane, mega $$$ LFA, just so they could sell like 600 of them to people who wouldn't be caught dead in a Corolla...

They OWE the Toyota performance fans for that slap in the face.

$19k, Toyota. Do it.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by Dimman

At the same time it's a little bit insulting to us common people that they spent 9 freakin' years developing the insane, mega $$$ LFA, just so they could sell like 600 of them to people who wouldn't be caught dead in a Corolla...

They OWE the Toyota performance fans for that slap in the face.

$19k, Toyota. Do it.

/signed

[bofa]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

I truly hope Toyota is willing to sell these things at a loss. That would show me/us that they're trying to get their foot back in the door even at their own expense. (Not to mention more money in my pocket ) However, I don't really see them selling these for $20k, $23k would be fair, but I have a feeling they're going to be starting at $25k.

Are Scion dealerships allowed to mark up the sticker price?

No, never seen it happen, even with the initial release of the tC.

[JSL]

Originally Posted by Dimman

$19k, Toyota. Do it.

You really want this car to be the next civic.. one at every corner? maybe paying a little more will stop everyone having one..

oh wait.. actually 2-4k more won't stop that.. I still think its going to be everywhere in the US.. hahah

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Dimman

This whole 'low-volume' thing for justifying high cost is another thing that pisses me off. We haven't seen a lot of stuff on this car that is super-fancy-expensive, which is where the price of performance cars gets driven up. The parts are expensive, so the car is more expensive than its peers to make. Therefore to account for less sales the manufacturers tack on a bigger price for higher profitability.

it all depends on volume. if components are made in house, then the cost of materials and tooling can be spread among multiple models, etc. less volume obviously means less total cars to spread the cost.

if parts are outsourced then the more you buy, the less per unit. simple economics.

the problem then is that most of you guys seem to think this thing is some rat rod bolted together parts bin frankenstein car that needs no unique engineering and parts adaptation. the engine is obviously unique (D4S,etc. not the block per se, but even that can be unique). the transmission is a FR tranny. toyota sure makes a lot of FR cars right? lotsa cars to spread the cost right? LSD? again toyota sure has a lot of them on their cars right?

and this sorta thinking goes all the way down to things like the uniquely shaped fuel tank, uniquely shaped interior door panels, windows, rear seats, even the trunk lining, etc. little things that we all take for granted but guess what? what other car can share the same shaped trunk lining? it has to be a specific shape for that trunk. if the car is a low volume car, then the price per trunk lining goes up and adds little by little to the overall cost...

[iff2mastamatt]

Originally Posted by madfast

it all depends on volume. if components are made in house, then the cost of materials and tooling can be spread among multiple models, etc. less volume obviously means less total cars to spread the cost.

if parts are outsourced then the more you buy, the less per unit. simple economics.

the problem then is that most of you guys seem to think this thing is some rat rod bolted together parts bin frankenstein car that needs no unique engineering and parts adaptation. the engine is obviously unique (D4S,etc. not the block per se, but even that can be unique). the transmission is a FR tranny. toyota sure makes a lot of FR cars right? lotsa cars to spread the cost right? LSD? again toyota sure has a lot of them on their cars right?

and this sorta thinking goes all the way down to things like the uniquely shaped fuel tank, uniquely shaped interior door panels, windows, rear seats, even the trunk lining, etc. little things that we all take for granted but guess what? what other car can share the same shaped trunk lining? it has to be a specific shape for that trunk. if the car is a low volume car, then the price per trunk lining goes up and adds little by little to the overall cost...

I thought that Toyota was using the FT-86 as a base for it's future lineups? It's just a rumor, but I could see it happening.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by iff2mastamatt

I thought that Toyota was using the FT-86 as a base for it's future lineups? It's just a rumor, but I could see it happening.

the company that killed off all of its sporty cars is going to use the FT as a base for their future cars? i'll believe it when i see it...

[NemesisPrime909]

well What I find interesting is the 2012 Civic Si starts at $22,205 and has 201 horsepower and 170 lb-ft of torque

while the 2013 FRS has an estimated 200hp and 150 lb-ft of torque and yet at the way things are going it 's looking to be $25,000+

hell even the Hyndai Genesis Coupe Turbo starts at $22,500 and you get 210hp and 223 lb-ft of torque in my opinion the Genesis is the FRS's main competition and they offer it with a turbo, while the Toyota is NA


I'm still not seeing a reason for the FRS to be priced so high

one user stated earlier that they spent 9 years developing the LF-A then only made 600 of them and had the price so high no one could buy them (that wasn't a millionaire) and I agree, that was a slap in the face. this however, is not a high performance car. It is a basic everyday car that's supposed to affordable by Joe Blow if they can keep this in the low $20,000's then they (in my opinion) will have achived their goal

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by madfast

it all depends on volume. if components are made in house, then the cost of materials and tooling can be spread among multiple models, etc. less volume obviously means less total cars to spread the cost.

if parts are outsourced then the more you buy, the less per unit. simple economics.

the problem then is that most of you guys seem to think this thing is some rat rod bolted together parts bin frankenstein car that needs no unique engineering and parts adaptation. the engine is obviously unique (D4S,etc. not the block per se, but even that can be unique). the transmission is a FR tranny. toyota sure makes a lot of FR cars right? lotsa cars to spread the cost right? LSD? again toyota sure has a lot of them on their cars right?

and this sorta thinking goes all the way down to things like the uniquely shaped fuel tank, uniquely shaped interior door panels, windows, rear seats, even the trunk lining, etc. little things that we all take for granted but guess what? what other car can share the same shaped trunk lining? it has to be a specific shape for that trunk. if the car is a low volume car, then the price per trunk lining goes up and adds little by little to the overall cost...

Good call on the RWD Toyotas... Ever heard of this little company called Lexus? IS250 is available with (shock!) a close ratio 6 speed manual or a 6 speed paddle shifting automatic. And I would bet money that they are made by Aisin. Oh, and an LSD.

Subaru designed this engine from the beginning to be upgradeable to direct injection, and has a history of making vastly different heads (actually entire motors) for the same 'number'. It was something likely already planned for with the new gen boxer.

No major mechanical parts (that we have heard about so far) are low volume/unique to this car, and that's where one of the primary costs come from.

[bigbcraig]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Yeah but those germans sucked....lol. And German cars are horribly overpriced....you think it's bad in the states, try coming here! Base price here on a 1M coupe is 67,000 EUROS. That's nearly 100,000 dollars. Tell them you're American, and the price drops to 43,000 dollars. For the same car. From the same dealership. I was instantly disgusted lol

I'm pretty much unwilling to buy a car from a brand that thinks it can charge more just because of it's name. I find it ridiculous.

Not always... http://jalopnik.com/5816234/bmw-deal...up-on-1m-coupe
Tell some dealers you're american and they'll charge you almost $100,000 too haha.

Originally Posted by Deslock

My responses, though combined in one big post, weren't that long compared to Maxim's posts.

My recollection is that in 2008, GR was the STI, GE the WRX sedan, and GH the WRX hatch.

All current WRX and STI, because they are widebodies, are GR. One confusing bit is that widebody sedan and hatch are both GR.

Flat-side hatches are GH, sedans are GE.