Unofficial - CEL/SL/Idle Issue List for FR-S/BRZ Owners

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by Jar

He's not saying somebody will likely be injured, he is saying that Toyota won't really give a damn until bad press from such an event happens.

And he's right.

Personally i think it's inevitable that Toyota/Subaru is going to experience bad press. This car is a media darling so it's only a matter of time before the word gets out that Toyota/Subaru is spending millions of dollars stopping production lines, reworking engines and "compensating" their GT86/FR-S/BRZ customers.

With this many cars broken and more breaking every day this is going to blow up sooner or later.

[Z06tofrs]

Yet another update on mine. According to the GMS they have some top Toyota mechanic working on my car and they can't figure it out. After replacing the cam parts/sensors and a host of other crap they still have no idea. The kicker I was told I am the only fr-s in toyota's server with this issue. After a hardy chuckle I whipped out my phone and politely directed their attention to this thread. I knew I was being taken for a ride. Anyway about my compensation this was also discussed further and again with Any option I choose they are paying my monthly payments.

I can now choose any fr-s from any of their lots or wait for another that matches mine comes in.

Or they will give me my old z06 back at a cost of a grand to them since the finance officer bought the dam thing; which pissed me off he even went into that.

My DP back towards another vehicle at 500$ over their cost. They offered me an 05 viper srt-10 for 33500 only 25k miles on her silver convert. That's a dam nice car too.

Or if I keep my car they are offering me any trd parts installed free for dealer cost. Including the 5 axis body kit rims and suspension. Although that new body kit on the min page tuner 001. Thought that was is pretty slick.

They were more " afraid" of me filling out the dealer satisfaction sheet poorly than using the lemon law. So if any dealer is giving you a Hard time and you haven't filled out that form you can politely say " I would hate to rate you poorly for this." I feel bad for people getting screwed. O yeah and a lifetime power train warranty which I told him was useless to me seeing as I planned to turbo the car anyway.

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by Z06tofrs

Yet another update on mine. According to the GMS they have some top Toyota mechanic working on my car and they can't figure it out...

Why don't they just replace the engine?

[@Art_Mighty]

From Subaru's "What's Inside" from Winter 2005



A balance between increasing engine performance, improving fuel economy, reducing emissions and stabilizing idle is difficult to achieve. In its 3.0-liter 6-cylinder and turbocharged 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engines, Subaru strikes that balance using the Active Valve Control System (AVCS).

What AVCS Does and Its Effects

The camshaft is a very precise engine component, with lobes that open and close the intake and exhaust valves with the critical timing required for the 4-stroke cycle. AVCS changes the timing of the intake valves by adjusting the positions of the camshafts based on inputs from various sensors in the powertrain. The system varies when the camshaft lobes open and close the intake valves during the 4-stroke cycle.

The effects of variable valve control include greater power through a wider range of engine speeds, improved fuel economy and reduced emissions. But to better understand how it works, let’s start with engine basics – the 4-stroke engine cycle.

The 4-Stroke Cycle

Most of today’s automotive gasoline engines function via a 4-stroke cycle. Engine components continuously cycle through four strokes, named for their functions of intake, compression, power and exhaust.

AVCS affects the roles of the camshafts in this process. Actuation is mechanical, by direct contact or through a combination of lifters, tappets and/or pushrods, depending on engine design. How the camshafts are designed essentially gives engines their personalities.

Camshafts in Subaru engines are belt-driven (4-cylinder) or chain-driven (6-cylinder) by the crankshaft. Intake valves open to let the air into the combustion chamber, and exhaust valves open to let out the exhaust gases. AVCS operation affects the intake valve timing or at exactly what point each valve opens and closes.

However, there are nuances in operation, and that’s where AVCS plays a part.

In the 4-stroke sequence, the exhaust cycle immediately precedes the intake cycle. Overlapping the timing of the closing of the exhaust valves and the opening of the intake valves can help the engine perform better under heavy loads, but not under light loads. AVCS continuously varies this overlap through an infinite number of positions. Overlap ranges between a slight overlap (“retard” position) through as much as 35 degrees of the crankshaft rotation (“advance” position).

AVCS Components

Variable valve timing is controlled through a hydraulic system that takes instruction from a system of electronic controls.

Engine management computer: Electronic control is by the engine management computer, which uses input from a number of engine sensors to determine the ideal position for the camshafts. The sensors include those that measure airflow into the intake system, coolant temperature, throttle position and camshaft position.

Oil control valve: The control unit then actuates changes through an oil control valve positioned at each intake camshaft sprocket. The oil control valve uses oil pressure from the engine to advance and retard the intake camshafts via the AVCS actuator.

Actuator: Mounted in the chain- or belt-driven drive sprocket, the actuator is fitted directly to the camshaft. Chambers in the actuator allow oil pressure to advance or retard it within the timing-belt sprocket. The oil fills the chambers and pushes against three lobes to turn the actuator and the camshaft on its axis.

AVCS – Bringing It All Together

At idle: The intake valves open just after the piston reaches the top of the cylinder (called “top dead center” or TDC; BDC refers to “bottom dead center”) at the end of the exhaust stroke, as the piston begins the intake stroke. The exhaust stroke creates negative pressure within the chamber, and intake air enters the cylinder with positive pressure “to fill the void.” There is very little or no overlap between the exhaust and the intake strokes.



Retarding valve timing improves the smoothness of engine operation at idle, which tends to be a problem area in high-performance engines without variable valve control. (If you remember the muscle cars of the 1960s and 1970s, you may recall how roughly they idled.)

At light-to-medium engine loads: From idle through medium engine loads, AVCS advances the intake valves to begin opening during the last part of the exhaust stroke, when the exhaust valves are still slightly open. Some of the pressure created during the exhaust stroke flows into the intake manifold, having the effect of exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). The intake valves also close earlier during the intake stroke.



Advancing valve timing for some overlap helps reduce the level of harmful oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust. It also improves volumetric efficiency, which is an indication of how well air flows through the engine. The greater the efficiency, the stronger the engine’s performance.

At heavy engine loads: When the engine is used aggressively for greatest performance, AVCS advances the intake valves further to open even sooner during the exhaust stroke. This produces a scavenging effect – that is, intake airflow helps clear the cylinder of exhaust gas. It also closes the intake valves sooner on the compression stroke.



This results in improved volumetric efficiency and helps to generate higher power output.

Overall, varying valve timing helps the engine to develop power more evenly between low and high speeds. At the same time, it improves engine idle and lowers exhaust emissions.

Thoroughly Modern AVCS

AVCS contributes to the driveability and performance of many Subaru engines. It provides greater power, smoother operation and fewer harmful emissions through a thoroughly modern engine technology.

[vobla6.0]

Many thanks to @Art for interesting reads.... at this rate of research some clever members here might get to the root cause of the issue before Toyota or Subaru
I will certainly read and reread everything when I get free time.

[jesperswe]

Agree with above, without this forum and it's members we would tremble in darkness :p When i actually use this thread for reference to my local Toyota and they then use it also when contacting Toyota HQ here in Sweden to highlight the problem. Thats just amazing

[pituala]

What doesn't make sense is why would it work for a certain period of time, then all of the sudden decide to not work. The VCT I mean.

[450hp/tonne]

Originally Posted by gwascopter

toyota doesnt give a shit till someone end up gets injuries or even worse such as getting someone's entire family killed again.

How wrong you are ...

Originally Posted by vobla6.0

at this rate of research some clever members here might get to the root cause of the issue before Toyota or Subaru

Sorry to inform you, but the score is currently Toyobaru 1, forum members 0 ...
Unfortunately, the ideal fix takes some time.

The AVCS above is the previous generation system, the 86/BRZ system operates differently, but achieves the same outcome.

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by vobla6.0

Many thanks to @Art for interesting reads.... at this rate of research some clever members here might get to the root cause of the issue before Toyota or Subaru
I will certainly read and reread everything when I get free time.

Thank you for your kind words...

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by pituala

What doesn't make sense is why would it work for a certain period of time, then all of the sudden decide to not work. The VCT I mean.

If you look at the system, mechanically it's very simple. These types of valve timing systems are widely used by Subaru and Porsche (and maybe others) and from what I understand they are very successful with it.

What's missing in the drawing are the sensors for the crankshaft, timing cam and the ECU but the principle in it's operation is easy to understand; 1) the ECU commands a timing change by sending a signal to the oil control valve, 2) the oil control valve releases additional oil to hydraulically advance or retard the cam position, relative to the camgear 3) the ECU measures the change with sensor feedback. When the sensor input on the timing cam deviates from what the ECU is expecting, we get out lovely error code.

The amazing thing about the issue is that appears at random, both in which engines are affected and WHERE in the engine it happens. The different codes each represent a different cam:

P0016 Crankshaft Position Abnormality - (Bank 1=Passenger Side, Sensor A=Intake Cam)
P0018 Crankshaft Position Abnormality - (Bank 2=Drivers Side, Sensor A=Intake Cam)
P0017 Crankshaft Position Abnormality - (Bank 1=Passenger Side, Sensor B=Exhaust Cam)
P0019 Crankshaft Position Abnormality - (Bank 2=Drivers Side, Sensor B=Exhaust Cam)

My 1st theory for the root cause has to do with those oil passages in the block that go in-between the oil control valves and the cam gear. Either A) something is getting in there, B) something is being left behind or C) (in the cases multiple repair attempts have failed) the channel is blocked or barely passable to oil because of a defect in the casting process. If B&C are true, there may be problems with the casting process for this new engine (entirely plausible with it being so new), resulting in "bad" engine blocks.

A&B would explain why replacing all of these oil control valves and cam gears is working. Whatever is getting into in those channels is damaging these two parts so their replacement resolves the problem.

My 2nd theory for the root cause is there might be some sort of spring set that's faulty in either the cam gear, the oil control valve (or both) which return these critical parts into a middle or "neutral" position. If a spring malfunctioned then the system might be starting out in a state that's unacceptable to the ECU and that would also trigger the DTC

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by 450hp/tonne

The AVCS above is the previous generation system, the 86/BRZ system operates differently, but achieves the same outcome.

I completely agree (this was an 2005 article), however i believe both systems operate along the same basic principles.

[mact]

Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty

My 1st theory for the root cause has to do with those oil passages in the block that go in-between the Oil Control Valves and the cam. Either A) something is getting in there, B) something is being left behind or

Do you think it has anything to do with new engine metal "shavings" ?

[jesperswe]

Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty

My 2nd theory for the root cause is there might be some sort of spring set that's faulty in either the cam gear, the oil control valve (or both) which return these critical parts into a middle or "neutral" position. If a spring malfunctioned then the system might be starting out in a state that's unacceptable to the ECU and that would also trigger the DTC

This was also mentioned to me from my Toyota tech guy, that the spring or whatever it was, is made faulty and to weak.

For another note i found out today, that there is another car in Sweden which has problems, making 3 known in total. Miles unknown.

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by 450hp/tonne

Sorry to inform you, but the score is currently Toyobaru 1, forum members 0 ...

Don't kid yourself, even if Toyobaru knows the root cause (and with 100's of the planets best powertrain engineers and their immense resources it's inevitable they will get to the bottom of this)...

...they will NEVER tell us. We won't be in the know because it's probably not going to be in their best interests to share the information with the public for a number of reasons:

> Negative Publicity (this could turn into another PR nightmare)
> Proprietary information getting into the hand of their competitors
> Government scrutiny (NHTSA, Congress)
> Exposure to civil and criminal liability

450hp/tonne you know this better then just about anyone here because you and Moto-P are both Toyota employees and you're both engineers