Supra (Toyota/BMW) vs. FT86 (Toyota/Subaru)

[JR]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

A lot of ppl said the same thing about 86/BRZ. $25k~$35k price tag, we have so~~~~~ many option to buy more functional, bigger space, powerful cars. So why are we still owning 86/BRZ? Because everyone have different quirk and wants/needs from the car. You'll be surprised a lot of ppl are interesting in buying this car. I know one dealership already have over 50 ppl on the list to buy new Supra.

Toyota isn't planning to mass produce this car to begin w. It'll be very small production per year.

FYI A80 Supra or US call it MkIV Supra is GT car more than sports car. So GT part haven't changed one single bit.

To add, some sports car enthusiasts still admire and wanting to own GT-R (R35) and new NSX, even though it only comes AT. Porsche did AT only for 911 few yrs back, but I feel like that was strategic planning on their marketing side. To add to AT list, look at Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren and other hyper cars brands in there.

So to answer your question, Supra will sell perfectly fine.

The 86/BRZ buyer USUALLY falls into two categories. The first is a young individual who is looking to purchase their first new RWD sports car. Once they have the car for awhile, they realize that it is not fast enough to impress their friends and/or win stop light drag races and they end up trading it in for another car around its price range (WRX, Muscle Car, GTI, etc) . The others are enthusiast who appreciate the handling, low center of gravity, low curb weight, throttle response and NA engine where you have to work for your power. They also realize that there are not many vehicles at that price point that offers these things besides the Miata.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Not sure the MT vs AT is as big a deterrent as people think.

Two seconds of searching found the breakdown of Corvette sales AT vs MT. In 2016, A total of 40,689 Corvettes were produced. Of those 31,440 had AT transmissions (77.3%). Had the manual not been available, how many sales to you think Corvette would have lost? I'm guessing not a lot.

of course it isn't a deterrent for the average consumer, many of whom in NA don't even know where to begin with driving a stick.. So using sales as justification is a big cop out here but either way, Chevy still manages to offer that choice. And this is even after their bailout during the recession on top of the current struggles with closing plants, ending their sedans, etc...meanwhile Toyota laughing all the way to the bank and yet they can't or won't give everyone what they want (again) despite this being yet another shared project.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

To add, some sports car enthusiasts still admire and wanting to own GT-R (R35) and new NSX, even though it only comes AT. Porsche did AT only for 911 few yrs back, but I feel like that was strategic planning on their marketing side. To add to AT list, look at Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren and other hyper cars brands in there.

So to answer your question, Supra will sell perfectly fine.

I'm not doubting sales because the majority of consumers just don't care about these things as long as the car looks awesome, but come on those cars are not marketed as "not about numbers/HP", "driving feel", etc. The Supra is far from the being the most powerful/fastest in its class, so what is to be gained from offering it with only a torque converter?

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by HKz

...So using sales as justification is a big cop out here ...

Actually sales isn't really a cop out, it THE justification. If Toyota thought they would not sell everyone they built without the option, they would offer it. That said, I do agree it should be offered, assuming there was one available that didn't require an engineering project to get it to market.

[krayzie]

Is modern BMW manual transmission cars even any good?

Maybe just maybe Toyota thinks the current BMW manual is not upto snuff / not meeting launch deadlines thus they need marketing to spin it? Otherwise why would they even mention that a manual option is a possibility in the future. Just a thought.

Then again this entire Supra project just seemed weird all along.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by HKz

of course it isn't a deterrent for the average consumer, many of whom in NA don't even know where to begin with driving a stick.. So using sales as justification is a big cop out here but either way, Chevy still manages to offer that choice. And this is even after their bailout during the recession on top of the current struggles with closing plants, ending their sedans, etc...meanwhile Toyota laughing all the way to the bank and yet they can't or won't give everyone what they want (again) despite this being yet another shared project.



I'm not doubting sales because the majority of consumers just don't care about these things as long as the car looks awesome, but come on those cars are not marketed as "not about numbers/HP", "driving feel", etc. The Supra is far from the being the most powerful/fastest in its class, so what is to be gained from offering it with only a torque converter?

You answered your own concerns in both cases.
They are a business. They sell what will make them the most money. I have little doubt that the people here that analyze their every move know far more than their highly trained and skilled marketing teams though.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Actually sales isn't really a cop out, it THE justification. If Toyota thought they would not sell everyone they built without the option, they would offer it. That said, I do agree it should be offered, assuming there was one available that didn't require an engineering project to get it to market.

what do you consider the reasoning behind the manuals offered with the Corolla/Celica/Matrix XRS with the Elise/Exige engine, FJ Cruiser and the new 6 speed & software with the new Corolla (or GRMN Yaris/Mark X/etc)? Toyota just likes to spend their money on random stuff?

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You answered your own concerns in both cases.
They are a business. They sell what will make them the most money. I have little doubt that the people here that analyze their every move know far more than their highly trained and skilled marketing teams though.

no doubt it is business. But would it really cause Toyota to require a bailout by spending a little more money to offer a stick? Instead they want to spend their money to build a hypercar that will probably become misunderstood like the LFA...yea makes business sense

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by krayzie

Is modern BMW manual transmission cars even any good?

Maybe just maybe Toyota thinks the current BMW manual is not upto snuff / not meeting launch deadlines thus they need marketing to spin it? Just a thought.

Then again this entire Supra project just seemed weird all along.

Nothing says they have to use a BMW manual. Launch deadlines are flexible and they had loads of time to develop a MT should they have wanted one. It isn't like they noticed last year that they didn't have one.
There probably was just no business case for one. Simple as that.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by HKz

what do you consider the reasoning behind the manuals offered with the Corolla/Celica/Matrix XRS with the Elise/Exige engine, FJ Cruiser and the new 6 speed & software with the new Corolla? Toyota just likes to spend their money on random stuff?



no doubt it is business. But would it really cause Toyota to require a bailout by spending a little more money to offer a stick? Instead they want to spend their money to build a hypercar that will probably become misunderstood like the LFA...yea makes business sense

I don't know. Probably not but their business does not revolve around one car either. They know what they are doing and all the armchair quarterbacking in the world won't change that. You said yourself that they are making money. This is the sort of thing that makes it look easy for them.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I don't know. Probably not but their business does not revolve around one car either. They know what they are doing and all the armchair quarterbacking in the world won't change that. You said yourself that they are making money. This is the sort of thing that makes it look easy for them.

meh, it would be a much easier pill to swallow if they weren't dumping money into other projects that do have a stick or that damn hypercar...

Originally Posted by krayzie

Is modern BMW manual transmission cars even any good?

Maybe just maybe Toyota thinks the current BMW manual is not upto snuff / not meeting launch deadlines thus they need marketing to spin it? Otherwise why would they even mention that a manual option is a possibility in the future. Just a thought.

Then again this entire Supra project just seemed weird all along.

we've been fed a trillion excuses. Tada has said shifting feel is too compromised for transmissions that can hold as much as torque as they need, he has also said they are worried that offering a stick would hurt the 86 because that is apparently what differentiates the two and pretty sure I read that they didn't think a stick would help with the driving experience...

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by krayzie

Is modern BMW manual transmission cars even any good?

Maybe just maybe Toyota thinks the current BMW manual is not upto snuff / not meeting launch deadlines thus they need marketing to spin it? Otherwise why would they even mention that a manual option is a possibility in the future. Just a thought.

I recently drove a friend's 2017 M3 manual and the shifter/clutch combo was solid. Could use a little more feedback going into each gate, but everything was nice and smooth. No grinds and no missed shifts. The clutch was good, especially considering it was holding 400+ lbs-ft.

Not sure why the Supra isn't being offered with a manual, but BMW isn't lacking in expertise in that area.

[JR]

I'm skeptical when someone says a manufacturer is known for having a good shifter. Honda's are praised for having good shifters and the one in my previous Si was not enjoyable. It felt like some Fisher-Price toy. The same can be said for the BMW 435i that I drove. The TR6060 in the current Gen Camaros are very good as well as this one in the 86/BRZ. This is just one man's opinion of course.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Not sure why the Supra isn't being offered with a manual, but BMW isn't lacking in expertise in that area.

Will you listen if somebody explains? Cars are so much faster now that average arm/leg movement speed is not acceptable. Check Nurburgring top cars.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I recently drove a friend's 2017 M3 manual and the shifter/clutch combo was solid. Could use a little more feedback going into each gate, but everything was nice and smooth. No grinds and no missed shifts. The clutch was good, especially considering it was holding 400+ lbs-ft.



Not sure why the Supra isn't being offered with a manual, but BMW isn't lacking in expertise in that area.

I disagree. BMW manuals suck. The shifter has long throws, it's rubbery and numb with almost no feedback. The clutch pedal is way too long (German tradition) and the grab point is way too high. The pedal arm is made of plastic, which makes it too flexible and inaccurate feeling. And then there's the damn clutch delay valve that screws up your timing, kills the little feedback there used to be, and teaches you terrible clutching habits.

I've had 4 manual BMWs before the BRZ, and a manual Audi before that. I still have one BMW and an older Benz. I love my German cars and as far as I can tell they'll be my overall go to in the future too, but a great clutch/shifter setup is something I've yet to see in a German car. Even Porsches don't do it right. The BRZ is the best manual setup out of all my cars I've ever had, even better (stock!) than my E92 335i, which had the CDV removed, a custom all metal shift rod/linkage, and an adjustable steel clutch pedal.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by JR

The 86/BRZ buyer USUALLY falls into two categories. The first is a young individual who is looking to purchase their first new RWD sports car. Once they have the car for awhile, they realize that it is not fast enough to impress their friends and/or win stop light drag races and they end up trading it in for another car around its price range (WRX, Muscle Car, GTI, etc) . The others are enthusiast who appreciate the handling, low center of gravity, low curb weight, throttle response and NA engine where you have to work for your power. They also realize that there are not many vehicles at that price point that offers these things besides the Miata.

...or buy it cuz you're having mid-life crisis... like me

Joke a side, I agree the most of the ppl fit into those 2 categories, (i'm in the 2nd one) but even in 1st category, there are other equal or cheaper, faster, roomier options that fits better. (Mustang & etc) But somehow ppl still buy 86. Miata is another good example of this unique mystery lol