200hp / 2700lbs - Really?

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by blur

BTW. Sports cars, usually come with a sport tuned engine. So your argument of having a car with 280 hp marginally faster than that of a 197 hp isnt going to work if both engines are sport tuned.

You're right... but at the same time, Turbo vs NA isn't great comparison. How much technology (and $) have to put into NA to get same amount of HP w same Liter from same L turbo engine.

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

Good point...and it runs 86......not even premium. Tuned and running prem.....might be a beast.

IDk, prob need to run 88 or 91 octane. Boxer engine are pretty picky on the octane

[Dimman]

Noobs... Too many of you are expecting Z car performance for a Corolla price. It's not going to happen.

From a real tuner's point of view, you can always add power. It's reasonably easy. You can't easily 'add' a good chassis, un-fuck bad suspension design (no offense AE86 guys with your solid axles... ), and cutting weight is a freakin' nightmare if you still want your car to look decent.

Start with the basics. Light, rigid chassis, good suspension geometry. Passable amount of power. If I get too bored after a while of being only averagely fast in a straight line, I don't need Toyota or Subaru to help me there.

And there are probably shops in your area that can help you too, if your ego gets too badly hurt when you're trying to race turbo Sonatas. Geez...

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Noobs... Too many of you are expecting Z car performance for a Corolla price. It's not going to happen.

+1

I'm noticing soooo many people thinking they're going to get 260-300hp for the price that the FT is supposed to be marketed for.... It just will. not. happen... period.

Agreed with the rest of your post too - Good chassis, reasonable power (i.e. not underpowered, and not so powerful that I have to fork out more for it), lightweight, and good suspension geometry. Everything else can be improved on relatively easily.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

WRX - 265hp $25.5
Ford Mustang - 300hp - $22K
Focus ST 247hp - $25K

shall I continue?

Heavy, AWD, 4 door sedan
Heavy, solid axle
FWD

Continue naming cars that are totally different than this one? Sure!

You another guy that doesn't actually want this car, or are trying to find whatever way you can to not buy it?

Go buy a Genesis turbo, throw some bolt ons and be happy being faster than this car. If you don't want it, or don't get the concept, why are you here?

[blur]

I kinda edited my last post cause i felt like i came off too aggressively, but you guys picked up on it regardless lol. Sozz about that. I kinda figured less is more lol.

WRX - 265hp $25.5
Ford Mustang - 300hp - $22K
Focus ST 247hp - $25K

shall I continue

Less overweight pigs, more RWD lightweights PLZ . . . after all, its not about HP but power to weight ratio, right?

[C4RBON]

I see car analogies on tech forums all the time, so I don't see why I can't do the opposite here.

Consider this:

For a long, long, time, consumers had the choice of buying laptops and desktops. Desktops were more powerful and could perform well at many tasks. But laptops were light and portable. Should one purchase desktop performance at the sake of laptop accessibility?

Asus didn't think so. They made a laptop small, light, and cheap enough that consumers didn't have to choose between a laptop and a desktop; they could have both. The new creation was the Asus Eee pc, which spawned the entire 'netbook' phenomenon that is still going strong years later. The Eee was such a huge hit, that every major computer manufacturer offers a netbook today.

I view the FT-86 like a netbook. While most guys would love to have a sports car as a second vehicle, it isn't financially viable for most families. If the FT-86 is small, light, and cheap like a netbook, people won't have to choose.

/analogy

The reason sports cars sell is because they are desirable. But they are a luxury. They aren't practical for every day use. That's why hot hatches exist; so you can have fun and still drive a practical car. But hot-hatches make too many compromises to be "true" sports cars.

Toyota wants to make a car that is still a true sports car, but affordable for the masses. So where is the line between a sports car and a hot hatch? If you don't know, go watch a few seasons of TopGear (I recommend Seasons 4-10). But it involves "passion" and "soul."

My vision for the FT-86 is not a track car to compete with Lotus and Porsche; it is not going to slay the muscle cars between the lights at 1 AM. Hell, it might not even beat your Camry. But it will get me out of bed each morning and put a smile on my face.

If Toyota (and Subaru) can pull this off, they could revolutionize the sports car market. Today's typical sports car costs 30k and up. If Toyata is successful, that number should come down nearly 10k.

If its fun to drive, all the numbers are irrelevant, except price. Give us an affordable car that brings the pleasure back to driving, and they will have a winner.

C4RBON

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by blur

meh.

think of it this way; the 2.0t gets more mpg than the si.

EPA numbers are higher, but EPA numbers reek of bs. I know this is a totally different motor, but the Genesis Coupe 2.0 T has EPA rating 30? or something highway, and I think if you look on forums people say they only get in the low 20s. Meanwhile the Civic is rated 29? but owners claim they get over 30 easy.

Anyways.

[blur]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

EPA numbers are higher, but EPA numbers reek of bs. I know this is a totally different motor, but the Genesis Coupe 2.0 T has EPA rating 30? or something highway, and I think if you look on forums people say they only get in the low 20s. Meanwhile the Civic is rated 29? but owners claim they get over 30 easy.

Road and track got 36.8mpg, but I saw complaints while searching. I cant really comment, not like I own one or know anyone with one.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/im...-sonata-hybrid

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by C4RBON

I see car analogies on tech forums all the time, so I don't see why I can't do the opposite here.

Consider this:

For a long, long, time, consumers had the choice of buying laptops and desktops. Desktops were more powerful and could perform well at many tasks. But laptops were light and portable. Should one purchase desktop performance at the sake of laptop accessibility?

Asus didn't think so. They made a laptop small, light, and cheap enough that consumers didn't have to choose between a laptop and a desktop; they could have both. The new creation was the Asus Eee pc, which spawned the entire 'netbook' phenomenon that is still going strong years later. The Eee was such a huge hit, that every major computer manufacturer offers a netbook today.

I view the FT-86 like a netbook. While most guys would love to have a sports car as a second vehicle, it isn't financially viable for most families. If the FT-86 is small, light, and cheap like a netbook, people won't have to choose.

/analogy

The reason sports cars sell is because they are desirable. But they are a luxury. They aren't practical for every day use. That's why hot hatches exist; so you can have fun and still drive a practical car. But hot-hatches make too many compromises to be "true" sports cars.

Toyota wants to make a car that is still a true sports car, but affordable for the masses. So where is the line between a sports car and a hot hatch? If you don't know, go watch a few seasons of TopGear (I recommend Seasons 4-10). But it involves "passion" and "soul."

My vision for the FT-86 is not a track car to compete with Lotus and Porsche; it is not going to slay the muscle cars between the lights at 1 AM. Hell, it might not even beat your Camry. But it will get me out of bed each morning and put a smile on my face.

If Toyota (and Subaru) can pull this off, they could revolutionize the sports car market. Today's typical sports car costs 30k and up. If Toyata is successful, that number should come down nearly 10k.

If its fun to drive, all the numbers are irrelevant, except price. Give us an affordable car that brings the pleasure back to driving, and they will have a winner.

C4RBON

Interesting analogy.

What else is interesting is that Toyota is benchmarking the Porsche Cayman for its handling. A mule has been repeatedly seen testing (without a turbo btw) at the Nurburgring. What putting this effort into handling does to the final car, seems to be lost on a lot of people that are just focusing on power numbers.

Once this testing is done, IT ADDS NEXT TO NOTHING TO THE PRODUCTION COST. Yet the payoff to the driver is fantastic! We are talking about a car that will approach (my god, what if it exceeds???) the handling capabilities of one of the greatest handling cars of the modern era. For a fraction of the cost!

That is what those of us who aren't crying over less than 250 hp numbers are thinking about.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

Sure, if youre lapping the your local track....when vehicles in your range.....I guess that'll be fun. You and the miatas will tear it up! For me personally.....I like having straight line power. It's exhilarating. If, taking a hard turn at a yellow light with gets you off....so be it. I like punching it heading onto on on ramp personally.

If I want a track car....I'll buy....a car....built......FOR THAT PURPOSE. Not a road car that likes to go on the track occasionally. Guys on the Z boards spend 20, 30, 40K modding their Zs for track performance. Why do that with something like a Caterham will MURDER your Z at every turn?

I don't know if I'd call the cayman one of the greatest cars of the modern era.......

Maybe the Porsche GT2 RS.....maybe a 2012 GTR......but...a Cayman?

Handling. Cayman is one of the greatest handling cars of the modern era.

You want straight line performance? Buy your Mustang GT. Buy your turbo Genesis.

Again, why are you even here? This car is the spiritual successor to a car that came out with 112 hp.

Genesis seems more up your alley. Flashy, cheap, can be made fast in a straight line, probably handles better than you'll ever need. Hell Hyundai doesn't even suck anymore. Icing on the cake is the turbo motor was co-developed with the Evo's. Have at it.

Edit: If you can't see that the G's is a showcase for dealer-sold and installed 'aftermarket' parts, like Scion's TRD supercharger, oh my...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

Youre the one driving a early 90s car......and I'm cheap? I paid cash for my car.........and could have done the same for a GTR.

I'm still waiting on where you saw official specs. Again, I remember an iteration with a turbo.

Oh that the's the G version....ahhhhh I see. I mean, Toyota has NEVER released cars with TRD parts straight from the factory......

Remind me did that come with the TRD Supercharger, or TRD turbo kit?

Considering that the only turbo you saw was on the G's, which is an aftermarket-type brand, what does that say for a stock production version?

Plus no turbo was shown at Geneva.

Plus there is no turbo in the test mule. (watch below)

So call me a pessimist, but probably not going to have a turbo. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. I and many, many others don't think it needs one. And if I get bored down the line, I can do it myself.

As for the price, and my car, and you paying cash for a GTR. Well good for you. Sounds like you would be happier if you had done that. My car will walk away from 300 hp 4.6L Mustangs and it was cheeeeeaaaap. It takes care of any straight line needs I have at the moment. I throw more $$$ at it and it can take care of 99% of the straight line needs of anyone on this forum. Good for me. This FT86 is supposed to be inexpensive. And inexpensive rarely means powerful. But they can make it light, and handle well for hardly any extra manufacturing cost, hence the 'Ring development.

[u2b]3SYJjE7Xrf4[/u2b]

[ichitaka05]

@ DesertSpool
I'm not sure where you live, but if you live in US, don't expect to buy a G's FT86 ver. G's is somewhat partner w Toyota... but only partner w Toyota JAPAN and not Toyota USA. We haven't even seen the G's ver of FT86-IIc yet. Maybe it'll come out on TAS? IDK, but currenly we only have one concept for FT86-IIc, which is NA and which we speculate to be 170~200hp.

Dimman is trying to tell you this car isn't going to be Z killer on straight... prob only way to be Z killer will be, if you mod it w several bolt ons (specially turbo)... and installing NA boxer engine w turbo is pretty much worse idea. Why? seen it done and almost every block have been blown if you push more than 6psi. Then use STI block? Currently we don't know FB block can be swap w EJ engine... yet (I'm pretty sure someone will try to do and will figure that for us). It's cost so much to do all those mods and prob get 260~280hp... if so mind as well buy Gen coupe 2.0T which already come w turbo and all the price extra features.

We can't say this car won't be or will be Z killer on straight, cuz we haven't had official specs yet... but from Toyota official, Tada-san, & GT5 we can speculate that this car wasn't meant for 1/4 mile or any high way race. Of course I can be wrong and Toyota might bring G's turbo ver... but again don't get that hopes up in US.

[Calais]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

Sure, if youre lapping the local track....with vehicles in your range.....I guess that'll be fun. You and the miatas will tear it up! For me personally.....I like having straight line power. It's exhilarating. If, taking a hard turn at a yellow light gets you off....so be it. I like punching it heading onto on on ramp personally.

If I want a track car....I'll buy....a car....built......FOR THAT PURPOSE. Not a road car that likes to go on the track occasionally. Guys on the Z boards spend 20, 30, 40K modding their Zs for track performance. Why do that with something like a Caterham will MURDER your Z at every turn?

I don't know if I'd call the cayman one of the greatest cars of the modern era.......

Maybe the Porsche GT2 RS.....maybe a 2012 GTR......but...a Cayman?

this really shows you dont know what your talking about a GT2 RS is twin turboed, AND stripped down to the point where you have no door handles, but bits of fabric instead, plastic rear window and a roll cage your comparing two different cars.

Lets asume you were talking about the GT3 RS instead which is given the above treament minus the turbo's, show me a cayman like this(from factory).. oh thats right it dosn't exist and you know the reason for that?? because it would out perform the GT3 RS, and that would absolutely cannibalise the 911 sales, its a fact that the engineers were told to hold back on this car and make it fit perfectly between the 911 and the boxer, and that is what it does PERFECTLY.

p.s. a GT2 RS would rape a GTR on track

[enc0re]

I'm so happy Toyota went to the club4ag forums for their initial development input. Those guys set the basics right: 1.6-2.0l NA, lightweight, RWD, low ownership cost.

Otherwise we probably would have ended up with a 370Z or WRX competitor.