200hp / 2700lbs - Really?

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by cyde01

competitive with what. an n/a 4 cylinder being competitive with a 300+ hp v6 in the 0-60 or 1/4 mile is just unrealistic.

+1. This car will need to put out more power to really be popular in this country. I understand that most of the people here want a lightweight affordable car, but outside of this forum people won't be interested in a car with 200hp or less. I don't care how well it handles or good it looks, I won't be buying one if it gets smoked off the line by my 50 yr old neighbor in his Sonata 2.0T

Originally Posted by WhiskeyJack

If the car is set-up in such a way that aftermarket parts suppliers can easily develop products for it, then I dont care if it starts at 200 HP, as long as the motor can handle up to 500 HP and I can do it in a financially viable way.

There is no such thing as a financially viable way to get a 200hp 4 cylinder to make 500hp. You're going to spend $25k in aftermarket parts on a $25k car to get that kind of power. Plus it's going to break down on you every other week. Even getting another 100hp will involve serious modifications, completely void the warranty, and still cost you $5k.

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

This car will need to put out more power to really be popular in this country. I understand that most of the people here want a lightweight affordable car, but outside of this forum people won't be interested in a car with 200hp or less.

actually i couldn't disagree more. my point was, this car was never intended to compete against 300hp v6s, and doesn't have to to be popular. the idea that a sports car with 200 hp will never sell in the US is just completely ridiculous and unfounded. there have been plenty of popular sports cars in the US that were 4 cylinders and around 200hp or less.

[matadormi5]

Originally Posted by cyde01

actually i couldn't disagree more. my point was, this car was never intended to compete against 300hp v6s, and doesn't have to to be popular. the idea that a sports car with 200 hp will never sell in the US is just completely ridiculous and unfounded. there have been plenty of popular sports cars in the US that were 4 cylinders and around 200hp or less.

Agreed.

My VW GTI being one of them. 200hp on the dot, and that's a huge sales success.

Also! even if a car offers a more powerful trim, it's usually the smaller engine that's the volume seller anyway.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by cyde01

actually i couldn't disagree more. my point was, this car was never intended to compete against 300hp v6s, and doesn't have to to be popular. the idea that a sports car with 200 hp will never sell in the US is just completely ridiculous and unfounded. there have been plenty of popular sports cars in the US that were 4 cylinders and around 200hp or less.

I would disagree that there have been plenty of popular sports cars that were underpowered. You can't compare 200hp now to 200hp in the past.

When my dad bought the first gen supra in '86 it had a 200hp 3.0L I6 and that was a big deal because our other car was a Pontiac 6000 STE (the sporty model in the line-up) whose 3.8L V6 engine bested the standard model by putting out an amazing 140hp.

In 2011 200hp is anemic for a sports car when you consider that your average family sedan is putting out over 260hp. For $25k my sports car had better do more than keep even with grandma's slushbox V6 accord which hits 60 in 7 seconds. And yes I don't need reminding that the FT-86 will be lighter, it still will need more power.

We don't need another $20k sports car without the stones to back up its looks. If you want that car just go and buy a Tc and get a TRD supercharger.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

In fact, let's make it 20hp and a unicycle. Cut out unnecessary costs like "windows" and a "radio."

Just as long as any grocery bagger can afford one. I mean, god forbid they build something amazing.

Let's shoot right square for less than mediocre!

Just give us the damn WRX style engine with FI. Like I've said before, we don't need another Tc with more aggressive styling. If people want that, just buy that. I'm sorry, I don't want every teenager with a summer job for 200 miles trying to buy this thing. Sorry if you can't afford it, I'm upset I can't afford a GTR....yet. Tell your future high school sweethearts they'll have to wait a few more years to fingerbang in the 86

Under powered quazi sport-back - Scion Tc

WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER ONE! Anything less than 220hp NA is going to be a sad joke for this car.

You're right, but I should clarify.

I drive a Celica GT-S (M/T). I love my car. It's not really fast but it's light and handles like a dream (and I love the way it looks inside and out). The only two things I hate about this car is that it is front wheel drive and it responds poorly to performance upgrades.

Thus, the only thing I'm looking for is a car that I like as much as my current car, but is RWD, and is easier to improve if I get bored with it.

That said, I'm fine with specs slightly better than what I'm used to, as long as the handling and suspension is superb. If everything else about the car is amazing but the HP is "low" (180-200) (but responds easy to upgrades without needing to build up the engine), then that just tells me I can slap on a few upgrades and be good to go. Or maybe there will be a higher model with better numbers.

Maybe it doesn't make sense to anyone else but to me it does. I suppose the last point is that with my expectations this "low" I won't be as disappointed with what comes out.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by matadormi5

Agreed.

My VW GTI being one of them. 200hp on the dot, and that's a huge sales success.

Also! even if a car offers a more powerful trim, it's usually the smaller engine that's the volume seller anyway.

The GTI is not a huge sales success. The Golf is. GTI versions represent a very small percentage of overall sales for that model.

[matadormi5]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

The GTI is not a huge sales success. The Golf is. GTI versions represent a very small percentage of overall sales for that model.

Maybe I exaggerate a little. I know the Golf sells way more, but the GTI sells pretty well considering you can get more powerful cars for the same price or even cheaper.

Originally Posted by tachi1247

In 2011 200hp is anemic for a sports car when you consider that your average family sedan is putting out over 260hp. For $25k my sports car had better do more than keep even with grandma's slushbox V6 accord which hits 60 in 7 seconds. And yes I don't need reminding that the FT-86 will be lighter, it still will need more power.

We don't need another $20k sports car without the stones to back up its looks. If you want that car just go and buy a Tc and get a TRD supercharger.

It's not just about how much horsepower, it's about how it deploys it.

[xantonin]

On a second note, the Lotus Elise, which has my same engine but supercharged, does 0-60 mph in 4.3s, top speed 150 mph, and is rated at 218 HP.

That's not an impressive number, but that re-enforces my point that Lotus has proven time after time again.

I don't care if this car has less than 250 HP. If it's light enough and handles itself well, I'm happy.

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

I would disagree that there have been plenty of popular sports cars that were underpowered. You can't compare 200hp now to 200hp in the past.

how is 200 hp underpowered in a 2700lb car??

Originally Posted by tachi1247

And yes I don't need reminding that the FT-86 will be lighter, it still will need more power.

no actually apparently you do. because that lightness is what's gonna make the car beat the slushbox accord and give it a decent 0-60 and 1/4 mile. but chief engineer tada has repeatedly said that 0-60 and 1/4 mile is NOT what this car is about anyway.

Originally Posted by tachi1247

We don't need another $20k sports car without the stones to back up its looks. If you want that car just go and buy a Tc and get a TRD supercharger.

the tC is big and fat, over 3000lbs and wrong wheel drive. that's why it doesn't have "stones." if you want "stones" go buy a stang and forget about toyota.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by matadormi5

Maybe I exaggerate a little. I know the Golf sells way more, but the GTI sells pretty well for a performance variant.

That is the point I am trying to make. The GTI is a variant. It is easy for Volkswagon to throw the 2.0T into the golf chasis and give it some nice seats and suspension upgrades and then sell it for a higher price to those who are interested in performance.

The FT-86 is not a variant though. It needs to hold its own weight and in order to do that it has to appeal to a greater audience. Outside of this enthusiast forum, people aren't going to pay $25k for a car with 200hp or less. Most people aren't going to autocross or track their cars and they will never notice how great the handling is. What they will notice is how a Genesis coupe puts them back in their seats when they stomp the gas at a green light. If the toyota can't match that then your average buyer isn't going to put down his hard earned cash.

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

What they will notice is how a Genesis coupe puts them back in their seats when they stomp the gas at a green light. If the toyota can't match that then your average buyer isn't going to put down his hard earned cash.

ok well the genesis coupe 2.0t makes 210hp in a 3294 lb car. if the ft makes 200hp in a 2700 lb car, which is gonna be faster when you stomp the gas on a green light? you tell me, which of those cars has the better power/weight ratio?

[WhiskeyJack]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

+1. This car will need to put out more power to really be popular in this country. I understand that most of the people here want a lightweight affordable car, but outside of this forum people won't be interested in a car with 200hp or less. I don't care how well it handles or good it looks, I won't be buying one if it gets smoked off the line by my 50 yr old neighbor in his Sonata 2.0T



There is no such thing as a financially viable way to get a 200hp 4 cylinder to make 500hp. You're going to spend $25k in aftermarket parts on a $25k car to get that kind of power. Plus it's going to break down on you every other week. Even getting another 100hp will involve serious modifications, completely void the warranty, and still cost you $5k.

I heartily dissagree.

I could see you splashing 25 K down if you had a shop do all the work. Otherwise, its rediculous to think you'd need 25K for that.

If the engine is capable of handling that kind of power (and we've seen plenty of stock engines that can handle it) then you could easily do it for around 10.

I have seen some insane times at the track for that kind of money, but you dont typically see it from cars that don't have a large aftermarket following.

Hell, the easiest car out there to get significant power has got to be the NSRT-4, and I personally worked on one that makes 500+ hp on 6 grand. And thats WITH a built motor. Its also a 215 HP car out of the factory.

All this is assuming the FT86 comes with a turbo, which I was under the impression that it likely will.

[Riden86]

Agree the average family sedan like Impressa WRX putting out over 260hp, why not FT86 have more power than that? It also should lighter and cheaper than 4 door-AWD cousin too.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by cyde01

no actually apparently you do. because that lightness is what's gonna make the car beat the slushbox accord and give it a decent 0-60 and 1/4 mile. but chief engineer tada has repeatedly said that 0-60 and 1/4 mile is NOT what this car is about anyway.
the tC is big and fat, over 3000lbs and wrong wheel drive. that's why it doesn't have "stones." if you want "stones" go buy a stang and forget about toyota.

A civic Si hits 60 in about 6.7 and that car has almost the same specs as what you are talking about for the FT-86. Maybe another 100lb extra weight. So I stand by my statement that it will need more power.

If I wanted a mustang then I would just go buy one. They handle like sh*t though. I want a real sports car. One that handles well and has good power to go with its looks and has the reliability and build quality I have come to expect from the Japanese manufacturers. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask Toyota to deliver such a vehicle. They have done it in the past and Nissan is doing it with the Z now. If the Z had 4 seats I would have to give that serious consideration when it comes time to purchase next spring.