Everyday Driver - ND Miata vs. FR-S vs. BRZ

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Have you actually read the in depth reviews of the 2015 Stangs? Hell even Matt Farrah chose a Fiesta ST over the Turbo Stang. Please look up the video and he will tell you that the car is numb, it packed on more weight but that because of the IRS suspension it rides more compliant. These things will never feel like a "TRUE" sports car. A slightly sharper GT is what you have in these cars.

I haven't tracked a new Mustang GT, but for what it's worth, Edmunds has one in their long-term fleet and several of their reviewers agree with you. They took the Mustang GT to Laguna Seca and thought it wasn't really at home on the track, mostly due to size/weight and body motions. Fast, but not really in its element.

The GT350R is apparently the Mustang to get for track use.

With the Camaro though, you'd be fine with something like the 1LE SS package.

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Have you actually read the in depth reviews of the 2015 Stangs? Hell even Matt Farrah chose a Fiesta ST over the Turbo Stang. Please look up the video and he will tell you that the car is numb, it packed on more weight, but that because of the IRS suspension it rides more compliant. These things will never feel like a "TRUE" sports car. A slightly sharper GT is what you have in these cars.

I was thinking of the GT350. I guess the turbo stang exists, but doesn't really lift it off the bag for me.

-Justin

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

I was thinking of the GT350. I guess the turbo stang exists, but doesn't really lift it off the bag for me.

-Justin

That's 50k dollars. I would rather build a ND or 86 up with that money instead. I'd even rather a used Alfa 4C

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I haven't tracked a new Mustang GT, but for what it's worth, Edmunds has one in their long-term fleet and several of their reviewers agree with you. They took the Mustang GT to Laguna Seca and thought it wasn't really at home on the track, mostly due to size/weight and body motions. Fast, but not really in its element.

The GT350R is apparently the Mustang to get for track use.

With the Camaro though, you'd be fine with something like the 1LE SS package.

Exactly! It is what it is. Nothing more and nothing less. A GT coupe.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

This may have been true about the Mustang 10 years ago, but not today. Ford has really stepped up the development of the chassis to the point that the stang is a world class sports car. And the sound of the new flat plane V8 is fantastic and exotic.

I'm not nearly as sold on the Camaro, but the roads are narrow and congested here. The size of that thing and the terrible visibility just don't make it a sensible option. If I lived in some parts of the southwest those considerations wouldn't be as a big a deal. I think most of the reviewers have said the Camaro is a good chassis, but it's big and it feels big.

At the end of the day, they could offer a 900hp Miata and a 200hp Miata for the same price, and I'd probably go with the 200hp version. I just don't have a place to use that power, and eventually I'd just get myself in trouble trying to find a way to use it.

-Justin

agree with most of the comments, many people still think them as old/heavy muscle cars that cannot handle or stop, well that's not true any more like you said, especially since a Camaro Z28 and the new 911 GT3 puts the similar lap times..

of course comparing a muscle car to a lightweight sport car is also weird, they're just different ..we were just discussing the value aspect price/performance and weight/hp are two important things a real sports car enthusiast , right?

I would wait and see the new Camaro 1LE before making assumptions by the way even the base Camaro SS meets or exceeds the performance figures of the new GT350, they're both great cars and I will most likely get one of them (in addition to a used Miata possibly)

[Entroper]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I haven't tracked a new Mustang GT, but for what it's worth, Edmunds has one in their long-term fleet and several of their reviewers agree with you. They took the Mustang GT to Laguna Seca and thought it wasn't really at home on the track, mostly due to size/weight and body motions. Fast, but not really in its element.

The GT350R is apparently the Mustang to get for track use.

I agree, I just saw MT's review of the GT350, and it looked very composed at the track even climbing over thick curbs on apexes. Sounded amazing, too. But past reviews of the V6 and GT, even with the Track Pack, mentioned feelings of sluggishness in the handling.

As far as the rest of what's been brewing here... geez.

DAEMANO, I think you misunderstood me since your response was so aggressive. Look at my first post in this thread. I liked the review, I liked that it actually covered the advantages of the 86. I even agreed with you that the cars have their separate niches. I, too, don't have a dog in this fight -- or maybe you could say I have both dogs (see avatar, and replace the NB on the left with an ND).

I just think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill every single time anyone posts a laptime comparison. We can all read, we can all do arithmetic. We know the difference between $26k and $29k and $32k.

FWIW, I think the differences in suspension between the two trims are minor enough that the tires make more of a difference. That's according to subjective statements from individuals on miata.net. I did post a thread in the ND Suspension category asking if anyone had measured or otherwise discovered the differences in spring rate and/or damping, and I never got a reply with actual measurements or sourced specs.

This: was meant to say "cheers, it's all good", it wasn't meant to be a passive aggressive jab which you seem to be throwing back in my face repeatedly. So if it came across as the latter, my apologies.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Guess I'll have to wait a few months to win that argument handily.

that is the thing though, I am not concerned with winning this argument or any argument I'll tell you right away " you win ", I am only concerned with learning something new or shedding some light on something that I have previous experience on, not based on the magazines, reviews or something that looks good on paper.. because we all know real world experiences may be very different than on the paper

'nuh-uh' NOT TRUE, I've seen several organizations allow Miata's (NC's at that) on track with OEM rollover protection. Hehehe wouldn't it be a bit ridiculous if Mazda Raceway didn't allow stock Miata's on track?

"Bare minimums" For each car it's different, the Miata and 86 are fortunate to roll out of the factory needing nothing more than brake pads and fluid with suspension that's capable and tires that aren't garbage. I agree that there comes a point where I would want a quality safety setup in a recent Miata (in the scenario with an NA/NB I'd definitely have it) but it isn't at stock-ish performance levels.

I actually wholeheartedly agree that a $32k Miata is overpriced (just like I'm sure many of us think a >$30k 86 is overpriced). For what it offers under $30k however is hard to beat imo.

at the end it's your money or life, so you are the only person who is responsible for those decisions

[Yoda]

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

That's 50k dollars. I would rather build a ND or 86 up with that money instead. I'd even rather a used Alfa 4C

and that was the whole point of my conversation to begin with, I've never said "Miata is not a true sports car" or "cannot compare to a twin", I just said all things considered it's a bit overpriced that's all so are the Blue series BRZs ..that's just my opinion

also I am not exactly sure why people cannot understand why magazines or other people make this comparison (MX-5 vs twins), simple because they are similarly priced (of course not similarly equipped) and provide similar price/performance and weight/hp figures .. same reason why they don't compare ND Miata to say for instance Porsche Boxster S , if money was not an object I would have at least 4-5 sports cars in my garage (ND Miata, Twin, GT350R, Cayman GT4 and maybe few others) ..

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

That's 50k dollars. I would rather build a ND or 86 up with that money instead. I'd even rather a used Alfa 4C

Good luck getting one for $50k. You won't be able to get your hands on an R until next year's production. It's very hard to find a non-R allotment these days.

But if you're going to compare the best model, compare the best model. The softly-sprung secretary Mustang is obviously not the top performance version.... and I bet Harris would still choose it over a base Focus.

-Justin

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by glamcem

same reason why they don't compare ND Miata to say for instance Porsche Boxster S

Ah but we all loved that 86 vs. 370z vs. Cayman Chris Harris video.

Originally Posted by glamcem

that is the thing though, I am not concerned with winning this argument or any argument I'll tell you right away " you win ",

When can I expect my notarized letter?

Originally Posted by glamcem

I am only concerned with learning something new or shedding some light on something that I have previous experience on, not based on the magazines, reviews or something that looks good on paper.. because we all know real world experiences may be very different than on the paper

Agreed

Originally Posted by Entroper

I did post a thread in the ND Suspension category asking if anyone had measured or otherwise discovered the differences in spring rate and/or damping, and I never got a reply with actual measurements or sourced specs.

I was browsing for fodd- I mean fun and found corksport claiming same spring rates across all MX-5 models, just a change in dampers for the Club trim, but maybe that falls under no actual measurements or sourced specs.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...2&postcount=33

[JS + BRZ]

[totopo]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Haha almost sounds like you doubt me Strat. I'm a bit Anyway here you go, 2.1 second improvement on RE050A as promised at Hockenheim short. It was Sport Auto that did the comparison:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=682127

The problem with that test was it was done on different cars on different days. The second day was considerably cooler, which helps out considerably. Also don't remember if it was the same driver, or if the second car was stock except for tires. I can't find an english version of that test.

All in all, very skeptical.

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by glamcem

of course comparing a muscle car to a lightweight sport car is also weird, they're just different ..we were just discussing the value aspect price/performance and weight/hp are two important things a real sports car enthusiast , right?

I'm really just most concerned with overall weight. If the car is light enough it can get away with bad tires, crap suspension design, solid rear axle, etc.

I had a few 3rd gen camaro/firebirds and spent decent time and money on the suspension. when I totaled my last one I ended up picking up an S12 200sx just to drive while I looked for another f-body.

The stupid Datsun on pep boys tires handled way better than my upgraded gm's running wide z rated tires. I was a convert, and never looked back. I don't think I've owned a car that weighs 3000 pounds or more since then (S12 200SX x 3 ~2500lbs, S13 240SX ~2700lbs, 1998 Civic ~2400lbs, 2005 xb ~2500lbs, 2001 Miata ~2400lbs, FR-s ~2800lbs).

Edit: Damnit. I own a Subaru Outback, but that is pretty much used like a pickup truck.

-Justin