Why Supercharged Instead of Turbo?

[FA5teryo]

Originally Posted by Thorpedo

See, anyone who replies to what I said and then claims "it doesn't sound as good".........ugh. Nevermind.

I will clarify that when I said "heat" I was also including engine bay temps. Something FA5teryo apparently didn't think about.

see, anyone who fails at trolling should not try to sound smart.

apparently you've forgotten about PTuning's rear mounted kit. otherwise, you wouldn't have come up with such a poor "heat" related argument.. not only would the under hood temps be lower, but the IAT's will also be SIGNIFICANTLY lower than a pd blower.. I can't speak for under hood temps of a centri vs front or rear mounted turbo setups, but I'd imagine IAT's are similar to a turbo having compared them on a different platform..

[wparsons]

The throttle response with a rear mounted turbo is pretty horrible, WAY too much piping to fill with air before the engine really responds.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by TurboBRZ

I'm just curious why you would be willing to spend so much money for such little hp gain?

It's all about area under the curve, cost, and throttle response (turbo lag). ESCs are beating everyone here. Nothing wrong with traditional superchargers or turbos, they're all great. I for one, LOVE your build thread (so informative, iIve recommended it to others).

Take a look at this post below and read through about one page afterwards. It was with slightly older ESC hardware that has been improved even since, but the fundamentals are sound enough. Look at what the Phantom ESC does vs Innovate Stg1 S.C. up to about 6k RPM.

I can see why a few members want to twin charge with ESC before Turbo. After all that's what Audi's rumored to be doing with the next R8.

Ignore the troll in the middle of the thread.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...64176#post6748

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by glamcem

exactly 25% performance gain for only $2k, hard to beat that for sure...

I really wanted to get an electric supercharger but opted for Kraftwerks for extended track use, hopefully in the future they will come up with more advanced options

Originally Posted by LucidMomentum

The procede controller that pairs with it, while an extra $500, does a good job of managing the boost for you so you're rarely without it. It delivers the power more linearly and makes it feel like a more powerful engine.

Exactly. I have a PROcede controller hooked up to my Phantom 2.0 ESC kit. The electric motor can spin instantly to max RPM as soon as it gets power. The compressor is 3d mapped to the throttle position sensor and engine RPMs. Lag is next to nothing. If I didn't know the hardware, I'd swear it was traditionally supercharged and tuned to have a shit ton of low-end torque (~3k-4k RPM). The power is just there. Above 6k RPM, where the ESC boost tapers, the car still delivers more power than a e85 tuned NA FR-S (roughly 225 WHP), all for about $2,000 (the PROcede upgrade doesn't add more power, just what equates to full-time F.I.).

Recently also the thermal limits have been increased. So the ESC is less likely to cut back power for longer sessions (previously owners reported about 20 min track sessions were max). I haven't tested how much longer that has been extended, I can imagine that it's all relative to driving style. @Robftss still won't call it "ready for track duty", but I don't see issues, hot lapping with it and managing the system the same way a driver manages the heat in their tires.

@Robftss and @fenton are currently working on improving hardware that provides even more top end boost. Really amazing that we're getting this depth of research, development and integration on our platform (the 86).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Exactly. I have a PROcede controller hooked up to my Phantom 2.0 ESC kit. The electric motor spins instantly to max RPM as soon as it gets power. So the compressor controller is electronically 3d mapped to the throttle position sensor and engine RPMs. Lag is next to nothing. If I didn't know the hardware, I'd swear it was traditionally supercharged and tuned to have a shit ton of low-end torque. The power is just there. Above 6k RPM, where the ESC boost tapers, the car still delivers more power than a e85 tuned NA FR-S (roughly 225 WHP), all for about $2,000.

If only it were sustainable...

It's not even suitable for a spirited canyon run

[glamcem]

I still have faith in ESCs hopefully in near future there will be a sustainable/trackable version that is also suitable for track use maybe the new battery technologies and/or combining with the hybrid technology can bring so many things to the table who knows

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If only it were sustainable...

It's not even suitable for a spirited canyon run

What canyons are you driving in?!

Better question is, who's busted car were you driving? haha!

I can stay on boost for probably ~50-70 seconds at WOT until depletion. Don't really know cause I've never been that crazy. Full recharge from there takes about another ~6-8 seconds (but I don't have to fully recharge to use the boost again, so that's kind of moot). I don't know of any places where anyone can hold the gas pedal to the floor that long. Perhaps a drive in my car one of these days might help. We're both in SoCal.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I still have faith in ESCs hopefully in near future there will be a sustainable/trackable version that is also suitable for track use maybe the new battery technologies and/or combining with the hybrid technology can bring so many things to the table who knows

It's all about cost. Batteries definitely already exist that would greatly extend the amount of time on boost, but they cost ~$1000. So do uprated alternators (although ours ain't bad at I think is 130 amps), as well as active cooling for the controllers. In its' current form Rob's Phantom ESC kit might just need the cooling for your average weekend warrior. This all depends on the driver and the venue.

The problem is that Rob's research and development is so quickly resolving some of the earlier limitations, that new information can hardly be spread fast enough keep pace. There are many uninformed or under informed people in regards to the current performance, and goals of the kit. Time and market penetration will fix most of this. The rest is up to Rob and owners to keep spreading the word.

I share your enthusiasm and optimism. ESCs are boon for enthusiasts, but they're a stubborn bunch (for good reason). Nearly all automotive technological improvements are met with staunch resistance. The scrutiny helps keep everyone safe and is welcome, but when new information, tech, and products become available, we (as a group) need to be prepared to open our minds.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

What canyons are you driving in?!

Better question is, who's busted car were you driving? haha!

I can stay on boost for probably ~50-70 seconds at WOT until depletion. Don't really know cause I've never been that crazy. Full recharge from there takes about another ~6-8 seconds (but I don't have to fully recharge to use the boost again, so that's kind of moot). I don't know of any places where anyone can hold the gas pedal to the floor that long. Perhaps a drive in my car one of these days might help. We're both in SoCal.

Just the standard SoCal stuff...

Watch the track videos and see how much time I spend WOT with FI, and you can see how much it really is...

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Just the standard SoCal stuff...

Watch the track videos and see how much time I spend WOT with FI, and you can see how much it really is...

I've watched a lot of videos but haven't seen any canyon vids that suggest anyone (including you) would ever deplete or overheat my Phantom kit in any of the local mountains. Growing up here I've been driving in them for over 25 years.

As far as tracks go, the kit isn't designed for that, but there are those that have gone for 20-25min sessions with lesser equipment than mine at either WSIR or SOWS (don't remember which). On a spring day, IMO you could run a good 15-20 minute session at SOWS without issues on my current setup, and 20-25 mins + with just a bit more cooling to the controller. Come in for the regular break and head back out as normal. If you haven't recently (or ever) I really think you actually need to drive a Phantom equipped car. The invitation will always be open.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

I've watched a lot of videos but haven't seen any canyon vids that suggest anyone (including you) would ever deplete or overheat my Phantom kit in any of the local mountains. Growing up here I've been driving in them for over 25 years.

As far as tracks go, the kit isn't designed for that, but there are those that have gone for 20-25min sessions with lesser equipment than mine at either WSIR or SOWS (don't remember which). On a spring day, IMO you could run a good 15-20 minute session at SOWS without issues on my current setup, and 20-25 mins + with just a bit more cooling to the controller. Come in for the regular break and head back out as normal. If you haven't recently (or ever) I really think you actually need to drive a Phantom equipped car. The invitation will always be open.

I haven't on the newer setup; the old one that provided juice for (~12?) seconds was a bit jarring.

Lets schedule something. This should be fun. Do you have upgraded pads on your car?

*edit* head out to the irvine meet at DJ tonight to chat more. I'll be there 7:30ish.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I haven't on the newer setup; the old one that provided juice for (~12?) seconds was a bit jarring.

Lets schedule something. This should be fun. Do you have upgraded pads on your car?

*edit* head out to the irvine meet at DJ tonight to chat more. I'll be there 7:30ish.

Won't be at the DJ meet tonight, I thought I had heard it was killed. I will be at the 8/6 day Modbargains meet though. Pad swaps a go. Winmax W2.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Won't be at the DJ meet tonight, I thought I had heard it was killed. I will be at the 8/6 day Modbargains meet though. Pad swaps a go. Winmax W2.

Oh it's not dead...