Truth about using STI Brembos on the twins

[wootwoot]

Is it really an upgrade? If so, how? I just don't see how these are better than stock....

[DSOmegaX]

Like Jive I had my 12+ system on my car for more than a year without any issues. Aggressive driving and occasional autox. At the end of the day you need to look at what your application is. If you track regularly don't kit this kit (just like people with wrx sti who track regularly will more than likely upgrade their brake systems). If I die in a fireball I'll let you guys know

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

you and i both know you're reaching a bit here.

i've had brembos mounted the right way for about 2 years now daily driven in NJ and NYC. had plenty of panic situations and etc, not one single hick up. car stops on the dime every time. the only time i had issue was when it was wet on snow tires and i got cut off while i was going about 60, panic braked and slid for a short second, but that has more to do with tires.

i'm not saying its a great choice, but some of the stuff in this thread is just ridiculous. this is a perfectly reasonable upgrade for the average enthusiast like myself who does only a few DE's days a summer and the rest is auto-x and street driving.

On a safe road, try doing a full ABS panic stop. You might surprise yourself. Your average production car will fade its brakes at the end of a single 60-0 stop. No joke.

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

So lets say you're in a panic brake situation on the highway in Texas. 80 MPH to Zero at full ABS.

Your front bias system, with street pads, overworks the fronts. You safely decelerate to 30mph from 80mph without issue, but now the fronts overheat, and stop working as hard. Now you have a rear brake bias for the remaining 30mph of braking, and you don't brake nearly as quickly with a rear brake bias.

Lets go further and say you rear end the person in front of you, and they file a lawsuit. They can say that you're negligent due to the "upgraded" inappropriately sized brakes on your car...

Hypothetical, and unlikely, but we have airbags in our cars for that hypothetical and unlikely situation right?

Oh trust me, I agree. Until I see measurements from the real tS setup to compare, there's no way I'd be doing the swap.

Realistically though, all brake systems are front biased. While ABS and force distribution can cover a lot of issue with the system, it's always best to do mods that will jive with the car's systems. Will be interesting if we can ever tune the ABS system in the future though.

[whataboutbob]

MCB, upgraded fluid, upgraded lines, upgraded ft rotors (DBA T5000), upgraded pads (WINMAX). I can run 275/35R17 Hoosiers and have enough brakes, with the stock calipers.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by wootwoot

Is it really an upgrade? If so, how? I just don't see how these are better than stock....

you're joking, right?

there is really nothing else to argue. i've stated my experience. it works. my car feels balanced, i'm changing to a different pad soon so i guess if you see me posting photos in my other threads, means i'm still alive

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

So lets say you're in a panic brake situation on the highway in Texas. 80 MPH to Zero at full ABS.

Your front bias system, with street pads, overworks the fronts. You safely decelerate to 30mph from 80mph without issue, but now the fronts overheat, and stop working as hard. Now you have a rear brake bias for the remaining 30mph of braking, and you don't brake nearly as quickly with a rear brake bias.

Lets go further and say you rear end the person in front of you, and they file a lawsuit. They can say that you're negligent due to the "upgraded" inappropriately sized brakes on your car...

Hypothetical, and unlikely, but we have airbags in our cars for that hypothetical and unlikely situation right?

What you've mentioned in the second paragraph with regards to fronts overheating can also easily apply to many other cars with factory (i.e. non-bbk) brakes, not just the FRS/BRZ with STI-Brembo's.

[protpibe]

I don't even want to participate in this thread anymore because it's at the point of absolute absurdity.

As a public service, I'll let you all know if I die in a ball of flames in a couple of weeks when I track my car with my suicide brake swap lmao. That's if I even make it there because apparently I may die in an emergency braking situation lmao. Some people need to give their head a shake

[wootwoot]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

you're joking, right?

there is really nothing else to argue. i've stated my experience. it works. my car feels balanced, i'm changing to a different pad soon so i guess if you see me posting photos in my other threads, means i'm still alive

Nope. Not joking. It may "work." And it may subjectively feel better. But that doesn't mean the car perfoms better. It's like guys that put $600 coilovers on their car, drop it 3", and swear up and down that it handles better. It may feel that way to them, but if you ran a few objective tests you would likely find the car is much slower through corners than it was stock. I think this brake swap is the same, which is why I call it a hack job. I don't believe anyone will die as a result of the swap. But I am sure their braking system will perform worse for having done it.

To me, these seem to be the facts:
The brakes fit. The Pistons are the wrong size for the application. They effect bias in a negative manner. They will perform worse than stock, speaking objectively, on both the street or track. They will still stop the car well enough of a commuter car.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by protpibe

I don't even want to participate in this thread anymore because it's at the point of absolute absurdity.

As a public service, I'll let you all know if I die in a ball of flames in a couple of weeks when I track my car with my suicide brake swap lmao. That's if I even make it there because apparently I may die in an emergency braking situation lmao. Some people need to give their head a shake

If you die can I have your brakes?

[wootwoot]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

If you die can I have your brakes?

LOL!!!!

[Canehda]

Originally Posted by wootwoot

Nope. Not joking. It may "work." And it may subjectively feel better. But that doesn't mean the car perfoms better. It's like guys that put $600 coilovers on their car, drop it 3", and swear up and down that it handles better. It may feel that way to them, but if you ran a few objective tests you would likely find the car is much slower through corners than it was stock. I think this brake swap is the same, which is why I call it a hack job. I don't believe anyone will die as a result of the swap. But I am sure their braking system will perform worse for having done it.

To me, these seem to be the facts:
The brakes fit. The Pistons are the wrong size for the application. They effect bias in a negative manner. They will perform worse than stock, speaking objectively, on both the street or track. They will still stop the car well enough of a commuter car.

For your first point I would say its more like getting factory STI bilstein suspension from the special edition brz ts for $600... Because the system new would cost you more than 2.5k easily brand new...

[lead82]

With all of this heated discussion, anyone reading this thread hoping to gain some insight, don't take any of these comments without a grain of salt. I see lots of false statements and misunderstandings here.

1. Changing the calipers will affect bias, whether it is good or bad depends on the driver preference. I don't know tube pressures during maximum applied brake pedal position nor piston diameters, therefore I don't know applied force at the pads.

2. I also don't know pad coefficient of friction nor rotor diameter, and therefore do not know brake torque.

3. I also do not know weight distribution of every body's personal cars nor their individual tire choice coefficient of friction and therefore I do not know maximum required brake torque.

4. I don't know pedal/stroke ratio nor a master cylinder diameter to know the best setup for pedal feel.

Unless you figured all of this out before doing the swap in order to bring the setup into your right performance range (which can be tuned after systematic testing), why do the swap and waste money based on subjective statements of it "working"?

Regarding the swap orientation:

1. Brakes will need to be bled. If you have air in the system, and the bleeder valves are on the bottom, you have a localized maxima (mathematically speaking) located at the top of the caliper bore, this WILL cause air to be trapped there, no question, no solution except to turn the caliper right-side-up.

2. If the orientation is swapped so that the bleeder valves are in the proper location, then brake force distribution is ruined. If that's the case, then why do the swap at all? The whole purpose of multiple pistons is to distribute the force across the brake pad in a manner that will optimize breaking performance.

In conclusion, I used to be interested in BBK before too (primarily for aesthetics), until I learned how much goes into designing a proper braking system. True you can do the swap and have it function, but will it funciton optimally? Only two ways to find that out, tests out many, many swaps and get a hit or miss, or figure it out objectively and systematically top down to put you in the right range before fine tuning.

There are better ways to adjust brake torque without compromising pedal feel and stroke.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by lead82

With all of this heated discussion, anyone reading this thread hoping to gain some insight, don't take any of these comments without a grain of salt. I see lots of false statements and misunderstandings here.

1. Changing the calipers will affect bias, whether it is good or bad depends on the driver preference. I don't know tube pressures during maximum applied brake pedal position nor piston diameters, therefore I don't know applied force at the pads.

2. I also don't know pad coefficient of friction nor rotor diameter, and therefore do not know brake torque.

3. I also do not know weight distribution of every body's personal cars nor their individual tire choice coefficient of friction and therefore I do not know maximum required brake torque.

4. I don't know pedal/stroke ratio nor a master cylinder diameter to know the best setup for pedal feel.

Unless you figured all of this out before doing the swap in order to bring the setup into your right performance range (which can be tuned after systematic testing), why do the swap and waste money based on subjective statements of it "working"?

Regarding the swap orientation:

1. Brakes will need to be bled. If you have air in the system, and the bleeder valves are on the bottom, you have a localized maxima (mathematically speaking) located at the top of the caliper bore, this WILL cause air to be trapped there, no question, no solution except to turn the caliper right-side-up.

2. If the orientation is swapped so that the bleeder valves are in the proper location, then brake force distribution is ruined. If that's the case, then why do the swap at all? The whole purpose of multiple pistons is to distribute the force across the brake pad in a manner that will optimize breaking performance.

In conclusion, I used to be interested in BBK before too (primarily for aesthetics), until I learned how much goes into designing a proper braking system. True you can do the swap and have it function, but will it funciton optimally? Only two ways to find that out, tests out many, many swaps and get a hit or miss, or figure it out objectively and systematically top down to put you in the right range before fine tuning.

There are better ways to adjust brake torque without compromising pedal feel and stroke.

Depending on the pads, tube pressure can be as high as 1400psi before ABS activates, on the stock system, with stock tires. With race pads, it can be a low as 350psi.