Twins vs 2015 z06

[mokinbird87]

I dunno about $55k, but with $15k put into the car, pushing it towards a used cayman/M3 price category, the performance parts that could be obtained are (assuming you do all the work):

this is my wish list btw (total price of $14,600).

innovate SC kit ($5000)
Ohlins R&T ($3100)
Essex AP racing endurance brake kit ($2500)
high quality wheels and tires ($4000)

I think with this set up you should be able to hit:
close to 250whp, 1g cornering capabilities, and less than 110ft braking from 60mph. if the car makes 250whp (300@crank hp considering 15% drivetrain loss for comparison sake), and weighs the advertised 2700lbs (+70lbs for the supercharger kit), the power to weight ratio would roughly be a 9.2, compared to an e92 M3 at 414hp and 3500lbs (pwr of 8.4) and a 2009 cayman s at 320hp at 3100lbs (pwr of 9.6).

but the Z06, along with OEM reliability, etc... just the performance numbers (if we`re not talking about steering feel, etc the emotional bits) is staggering.

505hp at 3524lbs, the PWR is a 6.9. it stops from 60mph in just 93ft (compared to Crawford BRZ`s 106ft even equipped with BBK).

none of it matters because I prefer the precise feel of the BRZ and that is something that does not show up in numbers or any chart, but if you wanna play just the numbers game, Corvette is undoubtedly good value for money.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by CSG David

Oh it is you. The legendary Celica GTS owner. I used to watch your videos and was thoroughly impressed with that work.

Get well soon man! Cancer is never a good thing. My dad has been working on cancer treatment solutions for a long time now and has developed a treatment to help in the fight for cancer.

no i dont have any youtube videos, but it was a copy of a similar build done on a lotus that @Boosted2.0 worked on.

but to get back on track the new vette is superior in every way to the twins

i got a twin because i can park it basically anywhere around where i live and dont have to worry about it getting broken into

But in a realistic comparison

FOR THE MONEY

there isnt much you have to do to either car to enhance the drive because both are well engineered from factory.

instead of modifying a twin to be as good as a vette, just buy the vette!

Personally my build will consist of a built FA20 at stock compression with a supercharger thats carb approved with all the suspension bits to support and compliment to bump in power. also i want some 8 inch wide rims milled and painted just like the stock ones to retain a sleeper look lol

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

no i dont have any youtube videos, but it was a copy of a similar build done on a lotus that @Boosted2.0 worked on.

but to get back on track the new vette is superior in every way to the twins

i got a twin because i can park it basically anywhere around where i live and dont have to worry about it getting broken into

But in a realistic comparison

FOR THE MONEY

there isnt much you have to do to either car to enhance the drive because both are well engineered from factory.

instead of modifying a twin to be as good as a vette, just buy the vette!

Personally my build will consist of a built FA20 at stock compression with a supercharger thats carb approved with all the suspension bits to support and compliment to bump in power. also i want some 8 inch wide rims milled and painted just like the stock ones to retain a sleeper look lol

On that videos part...this was before YouTube...

As for the BRZ/FRS setup...heh...

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

no i dont have any youtube videos, but it was a copy of a similar build done on a lotus that @Boosted2.0 worked on.

but to get back on track the new vette is superior in every way to the twins

i got a twin because i can park it basically anywhere around where i live and dont have to worry about it getting broken into

But in a realistic comparison

FOR THE MONEY

there isnt much you have to do to either car to enhance the drive because both are well engineered from factory.

instead of modifying a twin to be as good as a vette, just buy the vette!

Personally my build will consist of a built FA20 at stock compression with a supercharger thats carb approved with all the suspension bits to support and compliment to bump in power. also i want some 8 inch wide rims milled and painted just like the stock ones to retain a sleeper look lol

For you and others that like the stock twin, that's great. I'm happy for you.

No one is arguing that the stock vette isn't superior to a stock twin in every way...

I mean, saying that opens you up to being called captain obvious.

The question is with the same money that it costs for a new Z06, would the twin be superior..

Not what the resale value would be etc... would it be superior on the track with the same total cost.

I argue that with much less spent on a twin, it would be superior to what you could walk out of a dealership spending on a new Z06... Especially, if you do your own work on the twin...

The people I have a hard time with are the ones who say, you can't make a twin superior to a z06 no matter what you do to it, and that's just asinine.

Jaden

Let me add, if you can do your own work, buying a z06 would be asinine to me, because buying a entry vette and modding it with the same money as a z06, you could blow it's doors off...unless you just want to be able to say you have a z06...That just adds to the douchebaggery as far as I'm concerned... That's why I haven't liked the vette for a while, although the c7 is less douchey than previous iterations to me, I don't know why????

[chrisl]

I think you'd have a much harder time than many people think to actually make a twin superior to a Z06. Sure, you could make one faster than a Z06 in a straight line, maybe even faster around a track, but to get one to the same level of track performance and reliability (that means able to actually be lapped at the track for a full track day without breaking things all the time), you'd have to spend a LOT of money on a BRZ/FR-S, and you would probably end up with something that would be a lot worse to drive every day than a Z06.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by chrisl

I think you'd have a much harder time than many people think to actually make a twin superior to a Z06. Sure, you could make one faster than a Z06 in a straight line, maybe even faster around a track, but to get one to the same level of track performance and reliability (that means able to actually be lapped at the track for a full track day without breaking things all the time), you'd have to spend a LOT of money on a BRZ/FR-S, and you would probably end up with something that would be a lot worse to drive every day than a Z06.

Yeah a lot of money, $55-60K is a lot of money in disparity to work with..

Sure you can get raped if you hire someone to do the work for you, but it shouldn't cost any where NEAR that much doing your own work..

Jaden

[brainfinger]

http://www.bulletproofautomotive.com/conceptone

I bet it cost a few pennies more than a Z06.

[Jaden]

You could make a z06 blow the doors off of just about any supercar you can name if you can put another 100K into it...

Jaden

and I'm sure you wouldn't need to put anywhere near that much into it to be realistic against most stock cars...

comparing a well modded car to a stock car is kind of a joke...let me switch that wording... a car modded well...

[thill]

Originally Posted by chrisl

I think you'd have a much harder time than many people think to actually make a twin superior to a Z06. Sure, you could make one faster than a Z06 in a straight line, maybe even faster around a track, but to get one to the same level of track performance and reliability (that means able to actually be lapped at the track for a full track day without breaking things all the time), you'd have to spend a LOT of money on a BRZ/FR-S, and you would probably end up with something that would be a lot worse to drive every day than a Z06.

Exactly. Which is why you have to talk about reliability and if you have issues with parts from some random vendor on the internet you are at their mercy vs driving down to the Chevy dealer. Again, we are not talking run of the mill FT86 mods, we are talking about making an FT86 equivalent to what I would say is a supercar.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by brainfinger

http://www.bulletproofautomotive.com/conceptone

I bet it cost a few pennies more than a Z06.

If you buy it from them already made, then yeah it might cost about the same or maybe a bit more, but if you don't think that you can do everything that they did to that car performance wise, if you are capable and do the work yourself, for less total cost than a new Z06, then you are nukcing futs...

Jaden

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Jaden

For you and others that like the stock twin, that's great. I'm happy for you.

No one is arguing that the stock vette isn't superior to a stock twin in every way...

I mean, saying that opens you up to being called captain obvious.

The question is with the same money that it costs for a new Z06, would the twin be superior..

Not what the resale value would be etc... would it be superior on the track with the same total cost.

I argue that with much less spent on a twin, it would be superior to what you could walk out of a dealership spending on a new Z06... Especially, if you do your own work on the twin...

The people I have a hard time with are the ones who say, you can't make a twin superior to a z06 no matter what you do to it, and that's just asinine.

Jaden

Let me add, if you can do your own work, buying a z06 would be asinine to me, because buying a entry vette and modding it with the same money as a z06, you could blow it's doors off...unless you just want to be able to say you have a z06...That just adds to the douchebaggery as far as I'm concerned... That's why I haven't liked the vette for a while, although the c7 is less douchey than previous iterations to me, I don't know why????

The Z06 is just like Godzilla. It's a lot of things that are engineered into the car from factory that is just 10x better than modding a cheaper car. Reliability is THE biggest factor here. I can't stress this enough.

You could turn out a VERY good 86 if you did all the work yourself like this guy.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49172

@mrk1 is possibly the only person with the skills and tools on hand to put this quest to the test. Not only can he fab up pretty much anything, its also VERY VERY good work.

See I could TRY to fab some of the stuff he has done but the quality would suck and unless you have been doing what he's been doing as a hobby for a VERY long time or actually work with metal like he does. You are going to end up with a really shitty end product that wont last but a few track days before blowing itself up.

Bottom line.

We need to know how much power the new Z06 puts to the ground. Secondly, how much down force the car makes and how well it turns.

Find a track and run the Z06 and see what times it puts down. (A Magazine will most likely do this at a track for your convenience) Then, record track day conditions that the Z06 ran under at that specific track; Humidity, Temperature, ect. This will be your baseline to beat.

Modify your 86 without molesting it. That means no roll cage, Stock ground clearance, ect.

If you want any chance at being as reliable as the Z06 you would need to run some serious gear on the engine

Engine:
Custom Low Compression Pistons
Custom Cams
Titanium Springs, Valves, Retainers
Stronger Bearings
Billet Crankshaft
Dry Sump
Engine Oil Cooler
Turbo Oil Cooler
Upgraded Radiator
Very large Intercooler
Meth Injection
Nitride coat EVERYTHING that you should.

Transmission:
Replace with something better like a T56 that can handle the TQ.
Or you can get a racing transmission either would work.
Transmission cooler

Rear end:
Drive shaft shop Axles and Drive Shaft
Full Blown 8.8 rear conversion

Suspension:
Ohlins or comparable would be acceptable

Brakes:
Any 6/4 Pot config would work

Aero:
Full Under body Plate
Rear-Downforce

Wheels:
Something beefy will do

The Engine alone would be the MOST expensive single upgrade of the entire vehicle. Hopefully it is assembled correctly and doesn't blow up during it's first start or during tuning. A small mistake could lead you to shelling out for an ENTIRE new engine build. 1 loose bolt could blow up your $15k - $20k engine. (This includes buying a crate engine with 0 miles on it and modifying it.)

If you can't post similar times to the Z06 at this point. Then hand your car off to the guy who set the lap time or someone with similar capabilities to see if they cant set a close enough lap time.

If you are still treading behind the only suggestion I can give you is to start replacing all the panels with carbon fiber and start shedding weight. You can paint over it to retain a stock-ish look.

EDIT
The Biggest advantage the Z06 has is that if something does break, you can walk down to the dealer and order a fresh new part. One off parts made for your 86 will be hard to replace in short notice. So on another note. You would have to make multiples of custom parts so you have them on hand because your car wont be covered under warranty with a free rental car you can use while your car is being repaired.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

The Z06 is just like Godzilla. It's a lot of things that are engineered into the car from factory that is just 10x better than modding a cheaper car. Reliability is THE biggest factor here. I can't stress this enough.

You could turn out a VERY good 86 if you did all the work yourself like this guy.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49172

@mrk1 is possibly the only person with the skills and tools on hand to put this quest to the test. Not only can he fab up pretty much anything, its also VERY VERY good work.

See I could TRY to fab some of the stuff he has done but the quality would suck and unless you have been doing what he's been doing as a hobby for a VERY long time or actually work with metal like he does. You are going to end up with a really shitty end product that wont last but a few track days before blowing itself up.

Bottom line.

We need to know how much power the new Z06 puts to the ground. Secondly, how much down force the car makes and how well it turns.

Find a track and run the Z06 and see what times it puts down. (A Magazine will most likely do this at a track for your convenience) Then, record track day conditions that the Z06 ran under at that specific track; Humidity, Temperature, ect. This will be your baseline to beat.

Modify your 86 without molesting it. That means no roll cage, Stock ground clearance, ect.

If you want any chance at being as reliable as the Z06 you would need to run some serious gear on the engine

Engine:
Custom Low Compression Pistons
Custom Cams
Titanium Springs, Valves, Retainers
Stronger Bearings
Billet Crankshaft
Dry Sump
Engine Oil Cooler
Turbo Oil Cooler
Upgraded Radiator
Very large Intercooler
Meth Injection
Nitride coat EVERYTHING that you should.

Transmission:
Replace with something better like a T56 that can handle the TQ.
Or you can get a racing transmission either would work.
Transmission cooler

Rear end:
Drive shaft shop Axles and Drive Shaft
Full Blown 8.8 rear conversion

Suspension:
Ohlins or comparable would be acceptable

Brakes:
Any 6/4 Pot config would work

Aero:
Full Under body Plate
Rear-Downforce

Wheels:
Something beefy will do

The Engine alone would be the MOST expensive single upgrade of the entire vehicle. Hopefully it is assembled correctly and doesn't blow up during it's first start or during tuning. A small mistake could lead you to shelling out for an ENTIRE new engine build. 1 loose bolt could blow up your $15k - $20k engine. (This includes buying a crate engine with 0 miles on it and modifying it.)

If you can't post similar times to the Z06 at this point. Then hand your car off to the guy who set the lap time or someone with similar capabilities to see if they cant set a close enough lap time.

If you are still treading behind the only suggestion I can give you is to start replacing all the panels with carbon fiber and start shedding weight. You can paint over it to retain a stock-ish look.

You can't put qualifications like STOCK GROUND CLEARANCE on a comparison between modded and stock cars.

Just like everyone else, you're counting other people doing the work for you.

I rebuild my own engines, been doing it for 25 years.

Would I in this case? probably not you can buy a balanced and blueprinted lower compression shortblock for 4K with forged internals so why would I need to.

I'm doing things differently than most people would because I bought this car specifically for what it is to test bed certain things I'm designing and prototyping..

I'm not going to get into details here.

One of the things I would do if I was going to put that much money into the car would be to take out the trans and the diff and put in a rear mounted sequential transaxle. Remove 60-70 lbs and make the weight dist a perfect 50-50.

that's 15-20K right there though.

With that done though, you would have to do much less in some other areas.

People are making 400 reliably with turbos and stock internals.

I wouldn't be going that route, but I can't talk online about some of the things I'm doing.

Internals would NOT have to be upgraded to make over 500hp though with what I'm working on.

You want to talk about it a LITTLE bit, pm me and I'll give you my number and we can discuss it a little bit.

One thing that I'm currently working on that I WILL touch on is an axial compressor based supercharger. Much more efficient than other types and shouldn't even require an intercooler because of that.

That in conjunction with the other main thing I'm working on will easily be good for over 500hp, which has been shown to put the 86 on par with a 458 Italia, so do you think a stock Z06 will beat a 458 Italia???

I don't know if I'm going to do all of these things. I have stuff in the works, but you should know about the 'plans of mice and men'.

The things that I would be doing would total less than 33K... bringing grand total for me to 53K if I were to attempt to better the Z06 with my car.

Again, though, like you said, until we have hard numbers, we won't even know what the Z06 is capable of.

I would be happy being on par with the 458 Italia though

Jaden

[n2oinferno]

40-50k in mods to beat a stock Z06. And then the Z06 owner spends a little bit of money and puts you right back where you were.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

40-50k in mods to beat a stock Z06. And then the Z06 owner spends a little bit of money and puts you right back where you were.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.

and who is saying that you HAVE to have 40-50K in mods to compete with a Z06.. The point was if you DID put 40-50K in mods, you would likely destroy the z06...and if you can't afford that much right now, you can(for less) and spread out over time, get to the same level of performance... At least that was the only point I was trying to make.

This is the problem with that idea.

There is a point of diminishing returns where the amount of money you have to spend to get beyond a level of performance is crazily out of proportion.

You don't have to spend any where NEAR that much to put yourself really close to the level of performance of a Z06 in an 86, but to go substantially beyond that gets REALLY expensive.

And as I've already stated, you could buy a bare bones vette and put 25-30K and be better than the z06 too...

So really, it just comes down to whether you...

A) have 85-90K to spend right NOW,

B) want to have the ability to take it to the dealership and complain when something goes wrong(and we know the dealerships are ALWAYS on point with fixing issues under warranty-insert SARCASM-)

and or C) Don't care about having the pride of doing your own personal modifications to the car you drive.


I do find it funny though that the majority of people in the (can't be done) camp drive something ELSE...lol

let's see what comes next.

Jaden