FR-S/BRZ vs. Genesis Coupe

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Steve

The said affordable, fun to drive, small car, 2+2 hardtop equivalent to the Z4/s2000/Boxster S will exist in half a year. It's called the GT86/BRZ/FR-S, not sure if you heard of it. Lol.

The only difference is that the 86 trades off some power compared to the Z4/Boxster S (its pretty close to s2000) for more affordability.

In terms of "performance" vs. the M3/3 series/Cayman/whatever, again the 86 trades off power for more affordability. Otherwise the feel, handling and balance of the 86 should be up to par with said cars.

i think it could be what we want but we dont know the price. it could be cheap. or it could be expensive. and the s2k is up 20% on power so its not that close.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by DMDZK

It really isn't,

Feel/feedback absolutely ARE related to size/weight. Same vs. same, the lighterweight/smaller car will give more immediate feel/feedback. Size and weight insulate you from the driving experience.

I like the BRZ/FRS/86 as much as the next guy on here but some of us have really bought into the marketing for this car.

??? I realized a long time ago that lighterweight/smaller cars are just more FUN than bigger/heavier cars. Long before an FR-S/BRZ was even thought of.

I love the Idea of a affordable, fun to drive, small car. If there was a 2+2 hard top equivalent to the Z4/s2000/Boxster S I'd be all over it. Some of the best praised drivers cars of the last 10 years have been 600+ lbs heavier than the AS1, many with much more power as well.

Hmm, S2000, Boxster/Cayman, Miata, Elise, none of those are 600 lb heavier...

The fact is, lighter-weight cars are underrepresented in the population of sports/sporty cars. Which SUCKS.

To wit: the Buickification of BMW. Shenanigans!

Fact is, that car doesn't exist.

It does now. For real-world usage, this car pretty much *is* the equivalent of an S2000, but with a roof and +2 utility.

The GC is an amazing car for the cost, and assuming they've improved the past generations transmission woes (as read in reviews) they've managed to improve an already solid offering. I understand that the AS1 and GC are not true rivals in classification/performance. but to consider one without looking at the other given the few similarities is unlikely.

GC is pretty cool, but it's really just a rehash of the G35 (which is fine! but I was hoping for it to be a rehash of the S13 240SX). FR-S/BRZ are the first new cars on the market I've been remotely interested in buying for *years*. I hope they sell well enough to inspire competition from Nissan, Mazda, Honda, BMW, etc. But given the current type of sports/sporty car enthusiast (interested far more in performance specs than real-world driving experience), it doesnt' seem likely...

We shall see!

[DMDZK]

Once pricing information is finalized, I’ll feel a lot better saying this is the car for me. I will say it is the closest thing to the “right car” that I’ve seen in years. Personally I wouldn’t mind another 20 - 50hp but, depending on what this car costs, I could do without it. At 30k+ this car is under powered at 24k or less it is an amazing deal. It is really hard to find that magical, agile 2+2 rwd coupe, and I’ve been looking, hard.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Feel/feedback absolutely ARE related to size/weight. Same vs. same, the lighterweight/smaller car will give more immediate feel/feedback. Size and weight insulate you from the driving experience.

Handling is related to size/weight though it is one of many factors. Feel/feedback is barely if at all related. An M3 has vastly Superior feel/feedback than a Yaris or Fit, and an Elise is vastly Superior to a Lexus ES or Camry. to say a heavy car like a GTR insulates you from the driving experience is disingenuous. There is something to be said about the feel of a momentum car, but that is not the be all end all driving experience.

Originally Posted by ZDan

??? I realized a long time ago that lighterweight/smaller cars are just more FUN than bigger/heavier cars. Long before an FR-S/BRZ was even thought of.

I agree that light cars are fun, that is why I am on this forum and why despite many performacne advantages I’m not looking at the GC, Mustang, etc. This is however, a subjective opinion it can not be stated as a fact.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Hmm, S2000, Boxster/Cayman, Miata, Elise, none of those are 600 lb heavier...The fact is, lighter-weight cars are underrepresented in the population of sports/sporty cars. Which SUCKS.

No they are not heavier, but for me the soft top is a deal breaker. so despite my love for the s2000/boxster/z4 they are out (for me). I agree as well that there is a terrible gap in the auto industry's offering of a small fun rwd sport car, I hope the AS1 fills that gap but it is yet to be seen.

to suggest that the 3 series coupe, M3, GTR, Corvette, or Boxster are not some of the best handling cars available is either dishonest or flagrantly incorrect, many of those are 300 - 600 pounds heavier than the AS1. When I say we’ve bought to much into the marketing this is what i mean. A light car is great, balance likewise is great. However, being light is not some magic bullet for performance. The AS1 will be a fun car, it could be a great car, depending on price it could become a historic offering. But there have been great cars that weighed more, had higher center of gravity's, and offered plenty of non purist bells and whistles. I’m not saying you have to want those cars, but they shouldn’t be discounted.

[cassidy0998]

Ah... gorgeous.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by DMDZK

It is really hard to find that magical, agile 2+2 rwd coupe, and I’ve been looking, hard.

Yup. They're not out there. Plenty of oversized/overweight ones, though.

Handling is related to size/weight though it is one of many factors. Feel/feedback is barely if at all related.

Feel/feedback is not related to handling? I guess I disagree here, but it depends on what you call "handling".

An M3 has vastly Superior feel/feedback than a Yaris or Fit, and an Elise is vastly Superior to a Lexus ES or Camry. to say a heavy car like a GTR insulates you from the driving experience is disingenuous.

No, it's just a fact. Mass does isolate/insulate you from the experience. I never said or implied that all lightweight cars gave good feel/feedback, certainly you can give a lightweight car numb feel, which is why I mentioned "same/same". I.e., similarly developed similar purpose cars.

There is something to be said about the feel of a momentum car, but that is not the be all end all driving experience.

Light weight is a boon to feel/responsiveness in 20 lb/hp "momentum" cars as well as 6 lb/hp point and shoot cars.

I agree that light cars are fun, that is why I am on this forum and why despite many performacne advantages I’m not looking at the GC, Mustang, etc. This is however, a subjective opinion it can not be stated as a fact.

All else equal, lighterweight cars give better feel/responsiveness, in my experience. For me, this is a fact.

to suggest that the 3 series coupe, M3, GTR, Corvette, or Boxster are not some of the best handling cars available is either dishonest or flagrantly incorrect,

I didn't say that and didn't mean to suggest it. No doubt about it, those cars put up excellent handling numbers. Stock vs. stock, they should post better handling numbers than the AS1.

many of those are 300 - 600 pounds heavier than the AS1. When I say we’ve bought to much into the marketing this is what i mean. A light car is great, balance likewise is great. However, being light is not some magic bullet for performance.

Actually, it is. My RX-7 has less power than a Z06, but is ~5mph faster in the 1/4. And lighter-weight benefits cornering, braking, and in transitions as well. Ask an F1 pilot whether he'd rather have 10% more power or 10% less weight. But I'm not talking about outright performance, anyway, just feel/responsiveness.

I find it kinda ridiculous that there are next to no small/fun sports/sporty cars, but PLENTY of overwrought/overpriced/overweight "supercars". I think there should be a LOT more of the former.

The AS1 will be a fun car, it could be a great car, depending on price it could become a historic offering. But there have been great cars that weighed more, had higher center of gravity's, and offered plenty of non purist bells and whistles. I’m not saying you have to want those cars, but they shouldn’t be discounted.

I'm not saying that all great cars are lightweight. An M3 is a great car. But for me, it sacrifices WAY too much in the interests of being a luxurious and *expensive* car. I'd much rather have something smaller, simpler, and lighter-weight. Cheapness is also a welcome byproduct of simplicity

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Yup. They're not out there. Plenty of oversized/overweight ones, though.

Feel/feedback is not related to handling? I guess I disagree here, but it depends on what you call "handling".


No, it's just a fact. Mass does isolate/insulate you from the experience. I never said or implied that all lightweight cars gave good feel/feedback, certainly you can give a lightweight car numb feel, which is why I mentioned "same/same". I.e., similarly developed similar purpose cars.

Light weight is a boon to feel/responsiveness in 20 lb/hp "momentum" cars as well as 6 lb/hp point and shoot cars.

All else equal, lighterweight cars give better feel/responsiveness, in my experience. For me, this is a fact.

I didn't say that and didn't mean to suggest it. No doubt about it, those cars put up excellent handling numbers. Stock vs. stock, they should post better handling numbers than the AS1.


Actually, it is. My RX-7 has less power than a Z06, but is ~5mph faster in the 1/4. And lighter-weight benefits cornering, braking, and in transitions as well. Ask an F1 pilot whether he'd rather have 10% more power or 10% less weight. But I'm not talking about outright performance, anyway, just feel/responsiveness.

I find it kinda ridiculous that there are next to no small/fun sports/sporty cars, but PLENTY of overwrought/overpriced/overweight "supercars". I think there should be a LOT more of the former.


I'm not saying that all great cars are lightweight. An M3 is a great car. But for me, it sacrifices WAY too much in the interests of being a luxurious and *expensive* car. I'd much rather have something smaller, simpler, and lighter-weight. Cheapness is also a welcome byproduct of simplicity

i think you are confusing coincidence with cause and effect. i dont think weight and feel are related to eachother but they both add to fun. thats why a car built for fun will have light weight and good feel. my msp has more feel than my miata so im sure that weight cant be used as an indicator for feel.

[serialk11r]

ZDan, it actually makes perfect sense why there are no cheap small light sports cars. Sports cars are a luxury item for the most part. Not many people care enough to want to give up the practicality and low cost of a cheapo car for a sporty driving experience. The people who are looking for that typically aren't strapped for cash and want something more upmarket that is a better status symbol or feels more comfortable and upscale.

[SUB-FT86]

Zdan you just said that there aren't a lot of lightweight sporting vehicles but you are wrong. There is a ton of them now but they are FWD. I think you meant to say lightweight 2+2 RWD.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont think weight and feel are related to eachother but they both add to fun.

Originally Posted by DMDZK

Handling is related to size/weight though it is one of many factors. Feel/feedback is barely if at all related.

A light car won't always have better feedback/feel than a heavy car, but weight is a hindrance. Putting it another way, if BMW trimmed 1000 pounds from the M3, they'd be able to significantly improve its feel/feedback.

DMDZK's mention of the M3 made me think of this from earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by Deslock

saying weight is most important != saying weight is everything

Read this bmwblog article (originally posted in the E30 thread). Though it's obviously too soon to declare the FT86 the E30 M3's true successor and I disagree with a couple things in the article, for the most part it's spot on.

[Maxim]

Hmm.

I do not think that weight affects feedback. Feedback is purely a tuning/steering/tire related affair.

However....while a heavy car and a light car be tuned for equal amounts of feedback....you might not like what the heavy car tells you, in comparison to the light car.

The heavy car is going to be saying "I'm not in the mood" while the light car is going to be saying "faster."

So yeah. Feedback is separate from weight (unless you start getting ridiculously light to where power steering/brakes aren't needed)...but feel certainly is not.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Deslock

A light car won't always have better feedback/feel than a heavy car, but weight is a hindrance. Putting it another way, if BMW trimmed 1000 pounds from the M3, they'd be able to significantly improve its feel/feedback.

DMDZK's mention of the M3 made me think of this from earlier in the thread:

That was a good read in that article. And I agree that the FR-S is much closer to an e30 M3 than anything else on the market. I just wish it had the same size engine.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by cassidy0998

Ah... gorgeous.

Eww....Grotesque..

[miata]

Heavy = slow weight transfer= dull turn in = less responsive= less fun

Heavy = better ride comfort

[S2kphile]

Autoblog Review

Improvements but doesn't have that "excitement" when driving the vehicle.