How is this not an RX8?

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

This thread is stuffed to the brim with some of the most elitist garbage i've seen in a car forum about a car that isn't even for sale yet...

Wow

As opposed to a thread on any other car forum that is filled with elitist garbage...and your point?

[scorcherjf]

Wow 9 pages of posts and not one person brought up some of the most important differences regarding handling?

RX8: Double-wishbone front and rear
FR-S: Strut front, double wishbone rear

RX8: 50/50 weight balance
FR-S: 53/47 front/rear (if I remember correctly)

Just looking at those 2 details someone would probably guess that the RX8 has more neutral handling while the FR-S will understeer at the limit. I haven't done much research but we'll have to see if this does indeed happen when it gets reviewed on a track.

As a daily driver I would pick the FR-S because of the fuel economy but as a track car, RX-8.

[7thgear]

RX8's around these parts don't do well in time attacks/autocross

[scorcherjf]

By "these parts" and your sig I assume you mean Canada?

http://www.thespec.com/sports/local/...-championships

Originally Posted by 7thgear

RX8's around these parts don't do well in time attacks/autocross

[bFreed]

RX8s are made by Mazda, and they have rotary engines, and they are hideous.

And what is there not to like about the 86? Really?

I have no idea.

The only thing that might hurt it is its size. Not many people want a tiny little car like that, especially for a DD. Quick sedans are kinda the new thing going on in this $$ bracket I think.

[7thgear]

Yes, i'm fully aware of that little car, and i personally know both Scott and Gary.

However, what that little blurb does not say, is that while the car broke the GT1 record, the winner for the day was a stockish mustang.

It is a very well written but one sided article that does not tell the whole story.


Also, that RX8 is modded to hell and back, stripped interior, coils, wing, carbon fiber parts, engine is tuned....

Also of note is the driver, Scott has been racing for pretty much his entire life, so if anything he squeezed the most possible potential out of it based on his knowledge of Mosport. The actual owner of the car was a good 4-4.5 seconds behind both days, thats HUGE

saturday:
http://www.casc.on.ca/sites/default/...nt6results.txt

sunday:
http://www.casc.on.ca/sites/default/...nt7results.txt


PS i'm the chief registrar for the Ontario Time Attack series... so if you have any questions, send me a PM.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by scorcherjf

Wow 9 pages of posts and not one person brought up some of the most important differences regarding handling?

RX8: Double-wishbone front and rear
FR-S: Strut front, double wishbone rear

RX8: 50/50 weight balance
FR-S: 53/47 front/rear (if I remember correctly)

Just looking at those 2 details someone would probably guess that the RX8 has more neutral handling while the FR-S will understeer at the limit.

Toyota/Subaru could easily tune the FR-S/BRZ to be as neutral as the RX-8 or an insane oversteerer if they wanted. Via spring and sway bar rates, static camber, toe settings, etc. That said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's slightly more understeery, but by suspension tuning, not because of struts and 53/47 weight distribution necessarily have to mean "understeer".

RX-8 has a weight distribution advantage, but it has a 10% weight disadvantage (3000 lb. vs. 2700). Not insignificant...

So, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that the RX-8 should handle better but I wouldn't be surprised if it does. I almost bought one, but got an S2000 for reasonable mpg.

As a daily driver I would pick the FR-S because of the fuel economy but as a track car, RX-8.

For the track, I could go either way, really. FR-S weight advantage is not to be ignored, and with camber plates the front suspension disadvantage is minimized. For daily driver, FR-S for fuel economy.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by scorcherjf

Wow 9 pages of posts and not one person brought up some of the most important differences regarding handling?

RX8: Double-wishbone front and rear
FR-S: Strut front, double wishbone rear

RX8: 50/50 weight balance
FR-S: 53/47 front/rear (if I remember correctly)

Just looking at those 2 details someone would probably guess that the RX8 has more neutral handling while the FR-S will understeer at the limit. I haven't done much research but we'll have to see if this does indeed happen when it gets reviewed on a track.

As a daily driver I would pick the FR-S because of the fuel economy but as a track car, RX-8.

I saw some figures that put the actual weight distribution of the RX-8 at 53:47 and the Miata at 52:48. Trying to remember where I saw them, so don't put to much stock in the specifics but I know that it is often said they have "near" 50:50 not exactly as much.

[spin9k]

I've had my RX-8 GT model corner balanced and aligned. With my weight NOT in the car, the balance was pretty damn near 50/50. Total weight was 3047lbs / rear weight 1529lbs - .50180505... (maybe a prime number lol).

[Maxim]

To answer the original question of the thread....

Ways in which the 86/FR-S/BRZ is not an RX-8:

The RX-8 is priced one vehicle class above the Subyota. RX-8 was an affordable performance car. The Subyota is an inexpensive performance car.

The RX-8 had very usable rear seats. I fit in them comfortably. Snug...but not uncomfortable. I'm 5'10''. The Subyota appears to be much more cramped in legroom.

The RX-8 had a slightly "better" suspension layout and slightly better weight distribution.

The RX-8 had a freakin rotary engine, so it was crap for gas mileage but great on maintainance as long as you treated it like a rotary and not a traditional piston engine. The "bad reliability" repution was a result of people not knowing what they were dealing with, or buying a used RX from an owner who didn't know what they were doing. Rotaries are also absolutely phenominal in terms of engine character....rev happy, smooth as hell, and they can sound really awesome given the right exhaust.

The RX-8 was significantly more fancy inside. The Subyota has a great interior design, extremely functional ergonomics, but it is very very simple. It'll probably age more gracefully though.

The RX-8 essentially did not respond to mods. Getting a tune was an incredible headache due to the way the ECU was set up, and the intake and exhaust were already extremely efficient from the factory - to the point that many in the RX-8 community will tell you that the only point in getting a new exhaust is changing the sound. The Subyota will probably respond to mods better (but not as well as a factory turbo, or a mustang or small block chevy), and the ECU looks to be designed with tuners in mind.



Overall, the RX-8 was a quirky car with some really great qualities that basically answered a question nobody was asking. It was just expensive enough that it came into competition with significantly faster cars, and it got poor fuel economy during a time in which the public began paying much closer attention to fuel economy. That, I think, is really what scuttled it....they designed a sports-car that made several compromises in the name of utility so people could have it as an only car...but it got piss poor mileage and thus made a less than ideal daily driver.

The Subyota is inexpensive enough, especially in scion form, that it will compete against the hot-hatch set, and in that company it has several advantages: it's sexier and it's RWD. It's probably a tick faster than a Civic Si, comparable to the GTI, but slower than the rest. It'll be easier to launch though since it's not FWD....stoplight races will probably be won against faster FWD cars because of that, even though it might fall a bit short in 1/4 E.T.

Basically, the Subyota is the car that Hyundai wishes it would have designed instead of the Genesis Coupe. Inexpensive RWD, simple, a great handler, and differentiated in character and price enough that it's not going to be directly cross-shopped with the Mustang and Camaro.

I was really hard on the car last year during the development....all the leaking info suggested that the weight target was going to be missed by a couple hundred pounds and that it would be priced higher than we wanted....but I'm fully on-board now and plan on a BRZ limited. 2700-2750lbs, 200hp, Nav, HIDs, alcantara/leather heated seats, pretty decent looking stereo, great looking simple interior, good mileage, and from what I've seen, a fully-loaded BRZ Limited will be going for around 27k. The Scion will probably be around 23-24k. That's really really fair. Price out a loaded Mustang GT and you're knocking on 38k if you want all the go-fast parts.....and 32-33k if you want a fully loaded V6 model with the performance goodies.

I think this car will do just fine. It'll have to upgrade the power 20hp or so within a couple years to compete with newer versions of the hot hatches, but such is progress. Given a healthy aftermarket, I should have no problem keeping up as the car ages.

[Guff]

Originally Posted by Maxim

To answer the original question of the thread....

Ways in which the 86/FR-S/BRZ is not an RX-8:

The RX-8 is priced one vehicle class above the Subyota. RX-8 was an affordable performance car. The Subyota is an inexpensive performance car.

The RX-8 had very usable rear seats. I fit in them comfortably. Snug...but not uncomfortable. I'm 5'10''. The Subyota appears to be much more cramped in legroom.

The RX-8 had a slightly "better" suspension layout and slightly better weight distribution.

The RX-8 had a freakin rotary engine, so it was crap for gas mileage but great on maintainance as long as you treated it like a rotary and not a traditional piston engine. The "bad reliability" repution was a result of people not knowing what they were dealing with, or buying a used RX from an owner who didn't know what they were doing. Rotaries are also absolutely phenominal in terms of engine character....rev happy, smooth as hell, and they can sound really awesome given the right exhaust.

The RX-8 was significantly more fancy inside. The Subyota has a great interior design, extremely functional ergonomics, but it is very very simple. It'll probably age more gracefully though.

The RX-8 essentially did not respond to mods. Getting a tune was an incredible headache due to the way the ECU was set up, and the intake and exhaust were already extremely efficient from the factory - to the point that many in the RX-8 community will tell you that the only point in getting a new exhaust is changing the sound. The Subyota will probably respond to mods better (but not as well as a factory turbo, or a mustang or small block chevy), and the ECU looks to be designed with tuners in mind.



Overall, the RX-8 was a quirky car with some really great qualities that basically answered a question nobody was asking. It was just expensive enough that it came into competition with significantly faster cars, and it got poor fuel economy during a time in which the public began paying much closer attention to fuel economy. That, I think, is really what scuttled it....they designed a sports-car that made several compromises in the name of utility so people could have it as an only car...but it got piss poor mileage and thus made a less than ideal daily driver.

The Subyota is inexpensive enough, especially in scion form, that it will compete against the hot-hatch set, and in that company it has several advantages: it's sexier and it's RWD. It's probably a tick faster than a Civic Si, comparable to the GTI, but slower than the rest. It'll be easier to launch though since it's not FWD....stoplight races will probably be won against faster FWD cars because of that, even though it might fall a bit short in 1/4 E.T.

Basically, the Subyota is the car that Hyundai wishes it would have designed instead of the Genesis Coupe. Inexpensive RWD, simple, a great handler, and differentiated in character and price enough that it's not going to be directly cross-shopped with the Mustang and Camaro.

I was really hard on the car last year during the development....all the leaking info suggested that the weight target was going to be missed by a couple hundred pounds and that it would be priced higher than we wanted....but I'm fully on-board now and plan on a BRZ limited. 2700-2750lbs, 200hp, Nav, HIDs, alcantara/leather heated seats, pretty decent looking stereo, great looking simple interior, good mileage, and from what I've seen, a fully-loaded BRZ Limited will be going for around 27k. The Scion will probably be around 23-24k. That's really really fair. Price out a loaded Mustang GT and you're knocking on 38k if you want all the go-fast parts.....and 32-33k if you want a fully loaded V6 model with the performance goodies.

I think this car will do just fine. It'll have to upgrade the power 20hp or so within a couple years to compete with newer versions of the hot hatches, but such is progress. Given a healthy aftermarket, I should have no problem keeping up as the car ages.

[70NYD]

Originally Posted by Maxim

To answer the original question of the thread....

Ways in which the 86/FR-S/BRZ is not an RX-8:

The RX-8 is priced one vehicle class above the Subyota. RX-8 was an affordable performance car. The Subyota is an inexpensive performance car.

The RX-8 had very usable rear seats. I fit in them comfortably. Snug...but not uncomfortable. I'm 5'10''. The Subyota appears to be much more cramped in legroom.

The RX-8 had a slightly "better" suspension layout and slightly better weight distribution.

The RX-8 had a freakin rotary engine, so it was crap for gas mileage but great on maintainance as long as you treated it like a rotary and not a traditional piston engine. The "bad reliability" repution was a result of people not knowing what they were dealing with, or buying a used RX from an owner who didn't know what they were doing. Rotaries are also absolutely phenominal in terms of engine character....rev happy, smooth as hell, and they can sound really awesome given the right exhaust.

The RX-8 was significantly more fancy inside. The Subyota has a great interior design, extremely functional ergonomics, but it is very very simple. It'll probably age more gracefully though.

The RX-8 essentially did not respond to mods. Getting a tune was an incredible headache due to the way the ECU was set up, and the intake and exhaust were already extremely efficient from the factory - to the point that many in the RX-8 community will tell you that the only point in getting a new exhaust is changing the sound. The Subyota will probably respond to mods better (but not as well as a factory turbo, or a mustang or small block chevy), and the ECU looks to be designed with tuners in mind.



Overall, the RX-8 was a quirky car with some really great qualities that basically answered a question nobody was asking. It was just expensive enough that it came into competition with significantly faster cars, and it got poor fuel economy during a time in which the public began paying much closer attention to fuel economy. That, I think, is really what scuttled it....they designed a sports-car that made several compromises in the name of utility so people could have it as an only car...but it got piss poor mileage and thus made a less than ideal daily driver.

The Subyota is inexpensive enough, especially in scion form, that it will compete against the hot-hatch set, and in that company it has several advantages: it's sexier and it's RWD. It's probably a tick faster than a Civic Si, comparable to the GTI, but slower than the rest. It'll be easier to launch though since it's not FWD....stoplight races will probably be won against faster FWD cars because of that, even though it might fall a bit short in 1/4 E.T.

Basically, the Subyota is the car that Hyundai wishes it would have designed instead of the Genesis Coupe. Inexpensive RWD, simple, a great handler, and differentiated in character and price enough that it's not going to be directly cross-shopped with the Mustang and Camaro.

I was really hard on the car last year during the development....all the leaking info suggested that the weight target was going to be missed by a couple hundred pounds and that it would be priced higher than we wanted....but I'm fully on-board now and plan on a BRZ limited. 2700-2750lbs, 200hp, Nav, HIDs, alcantara/leather heated seats, pretty decent looking stereo, great looking simple interior, good mileage, and from what I've seen, a fully-loaded BRZ Limited will be going for around 27k. The Scion will probably be around 23-24k. That's really really fair. Price out a loaded Mustang GT and you're knocking on 38k if you want all the go-fast parts.....and 32-33k if you want a fully loaded V6 model with the performance goodies.

I think this car will do just fine. It'll have to upgrade the power 20hp or so within a couple years to compete with newer versions of the hot hatches, but such is progress. Given a healthy aftermarket, I should have no problem keeping up as the car ages.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by Maxim

To answer the original question of the thread....

Ways in which the 86/FR-S/BRZ is not an RX-8:

The RX-8 is priced one vehicle class above the Subyota. RX-8 was an affordable performance car. The Subyota is an inexpensive performance car.

The RX-8 had very usable rear seats. I fit in them comfortably. Snug...but not uncomfortable. I'm 5'10''. The Subyota appears to be much more cramped in legroom.

The RX-8 had a slightly "better" suspension layout and slightly better weight distribution.

The RX-8 had a freakin rotary engine, so it was crap for gas mileage but great on maintainance as long as you treated it like a rotary and not a traditional piston engine. The "bad reliability" repution was a result of people not knowing what they were dealing with, or buying a used RX from an owner who didn't know what they were doing. Rotaries are also absolutely phenominal in terms of engine character....rev happy, smooth as hell, and they can sound really awesome given the right exhaust.

The RX-8 was significantly more fancy inside. The Subyota has a great interior design, extremely functional ergonomics, but it is very very simple. It'll probably age more gracefully though.

The RX-8 essentially did not respond to mods. Getting a tune was an incredible headache due to the way the ECU was set up, and the intake and exhaust were already extremely efficient from the factory - to the point that many in the RX-8 community will tell you that the only point in getting a new exhaust is changing the sound. The Subyota will probably respond to mods better (but not as well as a factory turbo, or a mustang or small block chevy), and the ECU looks to be designed with tuners in mind.



Overall, the RX-8 was a quirky car with some really great qualities that basically answered a question nobody was asking. It was just expensive enough that it came into competition with significantly faster cars, and it got poor fuel economy during a time in which the public began paying much closer attention to fuel economy. That, I think, is really what scuttled it....they designed a sports-car that made several compromises in the name of utility so people could have it as an only car...but it got piss poor mileage and thus made a less than ideal daily driver.

The Subyota is inexpensive enough, especially in scion form, that it will compete against the hot-hatch set, and in that company it has several advantages: it's sexier and it's RWD. It's probably a tick faster than a Civic Si, comparable to the GTI, but slower than the rest. It'll be easier to launch though since it's not FWD....stoplight races will probably be won against faster FWD cars because of that, even though it might fall a bit short in 1/4 E.T.

Basically, the Subyota is the car that Hyundai wishes it would have designed instead of the Genesis Coupe. Inexpensive RWD, simple, a great handler, and differentiated in character and price enough that it's not going to be directly cross-shopped with the Mustang and Camaro.

I was really hard on the car last year during the development....all the leaking info suggested that the weight target was going to be missed by a couple hundred pounds and that it would be priced higher than we wanted....but I'm fully on-board now and plan on a BRZ limited. 2700-2750lbs, 200hp, Nav, HIDs, alcantara/leather heated seats, pretty decent looking stereo, great looking simple interior, good mileage, and from what I've seen, a fully-loaded BRZ Limited will be going for around 27k. The Scion will probably be around 23-24k. That's really really fair. Price out a loaded Mustang GT and you're knocking on 38k if you want all the go-fast parts.....and 32-33k if you want a fully loaded V6 model with the performance goodies.

I think this car will do just fine. It'll have to upgrade the power 20hp or so within a couple years to compete with newer versions of the hot hatches, but such is progress. Given a healthy aftermarket, I should have no problem keeping up as the car ages.

Great points, but the Mustang stuff is a bit off base. You can walk out the door with a new Mustang V6 (with upgraded wheels/tires/suspension/axle ratio) for about 26K, and pick up a 5.0 with what most people want for about 33K out the door with little issue.

[serialk11r]

But he mentioned that he wants all the amenities in the BRZ/FRS...so he was comparing to a loaded Mustang. What "most people" want is probably lower for both cars.