Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[Target70]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

...Thanks for the cool comparison. One other videos I would love to see if from a roll in 3rd or 4th.

+1
If you ever get the chance It would be cool to see how they would compare in a DD situation, like driving 4rd or above at low revs: ex: 2500, like you were just cruising, and then had to floor it. I think the end result would be very similar to the launch video, but with the increased speed and drag it would take him longer to get up to high revs, and you would climb so much faster in the low revs that it might take him longer to catch up.

[WNDSRFR]

I can't help but wonder...


If the aux charger charges the batteries so rapidly then why have the batteries at all? Seems like the compressor motor could be run directly from the alternator via the charger. If the alternator can't take it then maybe an aux alternator?
I wonder what it would be like to have full time boost?

[MmmHamSandwich]

The video doesn't tell me much personally. We've got an automatic versus a manual from a dig. Even a mediocre launch is going to give the manual a serious off the line advantage.

Another video, from a roll, with the manual in 5th gear and the auto in 4th gear will give us a much better idea of how these things compare in power made.

Just find yourself a nice clear stretch of road.

Originally Posted by WNDSRFR

I can't help but wonder...


If the aux charger charges the batteries so rapidly then why have the batteries at all? Seems like the compressor motor could be run directly from the alternator via the charger. If the alternator can't take it then maybe an aux alternator?
I wonder what it would be like to have full time boost?

You'd be better off with a normal supercharger at that rate.

The beauty of this system is you can "slowly" loan energy over time to a 3rd party electrical system when your car is not running hard, and then cash in on that energy in order to make even more power later over a short period of time. While it may seem like the alternator can recharge that energy quickly, even the difference between a recharge taking 30 seconds and a discharge taking 15 for instance, is a huge disparity in rates.

One reason batteries are used at all is an alternator, likely even two, are still not going to produce enough current to power the turbine. The cost to properly engineer and install a second alternator would be a poor investment and kind of defeats the entire purpose of the system. Running an alternator off the engine UNDER LOAD in order to spin the compressor will rob the engine of power while you're asking the most of it. This makes it act like a normal supercharger, except now because you are converting that energy from mechanical to electrical energy via an alternator and then back into mechanical energy with the compressor, you've just forfeited a lot of efficiency.

In addition the use of batteries also allows the energy to conveniently be placed in a medium with significantly higher voltage. The higher voltage is very important, as it means the compressor can be run at significantly lower amperage than the ridiculous sustained amperages a 12v system would have to operate at.

Like all FI applications it is a game of compromise. This system has advantages, but a disadvantage is it cannot compete as a full time system. If that is your goal, a traditional supercharger or turbo system is going to be vastly superior. Thing is, when you really look at the vast majority of consumers, they're unlikely to outpace a system like the Phantom under almost any conditions aside from driving on a road course during a track day.

And at any rate, if you have a full time FI system and you take it to a road course, you're probably going to have to invest substantial amounts of money in serious upgrades to manage heat in your drivetrain and brakes.

[Sojhinn]

We wanted to do a third gear pull but I swear there were cops in our area so we didn't want to push it. Maybe for the next video.

[shif7i7down]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Mfactory ones are "semi" helical, less angle than OEM.

Not sure how any minutes you're talking about, but helical is helical, it's got both helix angles and invoute. Allot different then your first statement about it being a straight cut.
Anywho, I'm not here to argue gear geometry with you. Have a good day

[MmmHamSandwich]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

We wanted to do a third gear pull but I swear there were cops in our area so we didn't want to push it. Maybe for the next video.

Understandable.

If possible a 4th AT and 5th MT will give the best comparison as both correspond to 1:1 on their respective transmissions. Granted you'd be moving pretty quick if you wound all the way to 7k. Though I think it is safe to say we all know the Phantom can't compete that high. Maybe a pull starting at 2.5k RPM or so (which would keep the speed pretty low) until the other car passes. From there we already know the rest of the story.

I don't think most of us are too critical on the performance comparison in a drag, but a rolling pull at equal gearing would demonstrate the practical difference in power down low, which I think is what we're really interested in. If a similar setup video could be made against a Rotex car, and a stock car as well at a later time, that would be amazing.

Regardless thanks for taking the time to make the vid!

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich

Understandable.

If possible a 4th AT and 5th MT will give the best comparison as both correspond to 1:1 on their respective transmissions. Granted you'd be moving pretty quick if you wound all the way to 7k. Though I think it is safe to say we all know the Phantom can't compete that high. Maybe a pull starting at 2.5k RPM or so until the other car passes. From there we already know the rest of the story.

Regardless thanks for taking the time to make the vid!

Not a bad idea that way. Next time we meet up will try.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich

Understandable.

If possible a 4th AT and 5th MT will give the best comparison as both correspond to 1:1 on their respective transmissions. Granted you'd be moving pretty quick if you wound all the way to 7k. Though I think it is safe to say we all know the Phantom can't compete that high. Maybe a pull starting at 2.5k RPM or so (which would keep the speed pretty low) until the other car passes. From there we already know the rest of the story.

I don't think most of us are too critical on the performance comparison in a drag, but a rolling pull at equal gearing would demonstrate the practical difference in power down low, which I think is what we're really interested in. If a similar setup video could be made against a Rotex car, and a stock car as well at a later time, that would be amazing.

Regardless thanks for taking the time to make the vid!

I think the blue car has a smaller final drive installed though...I could be wrong bit I thought he had 4.88.

If that's the case a 3rd gear roll from 2500 would give us a nice comparison.

[WNDSRFR]

You'd be better off with a normal supercharger at that rate.

The beauty of this system is you can "slowly" loan energy over time to a 3rd party electrical system when your car is not running hard, and then cash in on that energy in order to make even more power later over a short period of time. While it may seem like the alternator can recharge that energy quickly, even the difference between a recharge taking 30 seconds and a discharge taking 15 for instance, is a huge disparity in rates.

One reason batteries are used at all is an alternator, likely even two, are still not going to produce enough current to power the turbine. The cost to properly engineer and install a second alternator would be a poor investment and kind of defeats the entire purpose of the system. Running an alternator off the engine UNDER LOAD in order to spin the compressor will rob the engine of power while you're asking the most of it. This makes it act like a normal supercharger, except now because you are converting that energy from mechanical to electrical energy via an alternator and then back into mechanical energy with the compressor, you've just forfeited a lot of efficiency.

In addition the use of batteries also allows the energy to conveniently be placed in a medium with significantly higher voltage. The higher voltage is very important, as it means the compressor can be run at significantly lower amperage than the ridiculous sustained amperages a 12v system would have to operate at.

Like all FI applications it is a game of compromise. This system has advantages, but a disadvantage is it cannot compete as a full time system. If that is your goal, a traditional supercharger or turbo system is going to be vastly superior. Thing is, when you really look at the vast majority of consumers, they're unlikely to outpace a system like the Phantom under almost any conditions aside from driving on a road course during a track day.

And at any rate, if you have a full time FI system and you take it to a road course, you're probably going to have to invest substantial amounts of money in serious upgrades to manage heat in your drivetrain and brakes.


You're right. It would be pretty much exactly the same as a belt driven supercharger where the belt is replaced by wires.


I'm sure Rob has already considered most if not all the possibilities.

[robwbright]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

We wanted to do a third gear pull but I swear there were cops in our area so we didn't want to push it. Maybe for the next video.

How fast were you going when he passed you? I think you mentioned him catching up at 4000rpm in 3rd.

My car hits 60 at just under redline in 2nd. Is that telling us that your car was actually quicker 0-60 than the Kraftwerks?

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by robwbright

How fast were you going when he passed you? I think you mentioned him catching up at 4000rpm in 3rd.



My car hits 60 at just under redline in 2nd. Is that telling us that your car was actually quicker 0-60 than the Kraftwerks?

Yes. But he had an auto.

[nlowell]

0-60 I was measuring 6.5 with the 1.5 ESC. I've been hitting 5.3-5.5 with the KW. Not an accurate measurement but consistent - same road and same method.

My final drive is stock - no mod there

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by nlowell

0-60 I was measuring 6.5 with the 1.5 ESC. I've been hitting 5.3-5.5 with the KW. Not an accurate measurement but consistent - same road and same method.

My final drive is stock - no mod there

isn't stock 6.5???

[DAEMANO]

I was regularly under 6 (5.7-5.9) with 1.5x, haven't measured with e85 but I'm expecting consistent low 5's. This is with 6MT.