Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[nonicname]

Fenton have you been able to run out of battery power yet?

[mid_life_crisis]

Nobody wants to hear about making less power, but I am curious what the smaller unit produces and if it runs within what the ecu can correct for without throwing codes. It would obviously run out of steam before it hit the redline, but it also might make just enough improvement to be worth it for those that don't want to deal with messing with their ecu. If the small one produces gains comparable to or better than a full bolt on upgrade but installs in half an hour and is as easily removable for trips to the dealer, it might be just what some of us want.

[ATL BRZ]

@fenton , you should put this picture in the OP. Thanks for the videos, they really give us a good idea of how the system performs.

I'm also wondering how the real world battery life is as well as the charging rate. I wonder if this would last 20-25 minutes around a road course with some high tech batteries and a rapid-rate charger or beefier alternator.

[Wild Weasel]

Ooooh!! I'm in!!!

Hey guys... I've been trolling this thread for a while now and there were a few times I wanted to jump in and add my 2 cents. Last week I took the plunge... and then realized it would still take a few more days before I could post.

But now I'm in!!

If nothing else, I wanted to defend my lowly Sunfire engine, mentioned way back at the beginning... but that's neither here nor there. It was mentioned just recently that I ended up with a wickedly complementary boost curve between the M45 blower and the FTS e-blower. Right now my car is in storage, but I'm looking forward to going back to the 2.6" blower pulley to see what the final results look like. The charts have the bigger 2.7" pulley on the M45.

Anyhow... Fenton's done an excellent job of describing the whole process and the feeling of using this new e-blower here. It was a lot of fun to read through it as I essentially went through the exact same process just a month or so prior. It was interesting to see the same progression through doubt, hope, shock, and then what I presume to be an endless grin for the past while.

For my part... having read through here... there's a few things I'd like to add from my perspective. There's three things that seem a little murky or just somewhat unexplored that I think I can shed some light on.

First is the question of restriction. If you've gone through my site and all the details, you'll see that I tested two of these e-blowers and that the smaller of the two caused an intake restriction at higher rpm's when running with my M45. That's definitely a problem. Of course, the solution is simply to use the larger one, which is a little less efficient on the bottom end, but more on the top and is easily able to keep up with my CFM requirements. That's what gave me the wonderfully level boost curve with added power all the way to redline.

Now... with that as an example of obvious gains, the question remains as to what sort of restriction there is when the e-blower isn't running. The answer is that it's entirely irrelevant, so long as the blower is available when you want it. Rob keeps talking about putting in logic to turn the blower at low speeds to eliminate any restriction at all, but my response to this from the beginning is that it's entirely a waste of effort. All it does it prevent any sort of argument that it might be an issue, but if you put some thought into it you'll see that it isn't. If it were a big restriction, then you might have a perceptible impact on the throttle response, but it isn't. You just don't feel it. So the only question then becomes whether the engine will be down on power because of this slight restriction and that's where a little understanding comes into play.

As Rob mentioned here, your power level is entirely determined by the restriction caused by the throttle plate. That's how engines work. Unless you're at wide-open-throttle (WOT), you're actively restricting the airflow to the engine. If you want more power, you push the gas pedal a little further. Now, if there's a slight restriction in your intake, this might mean that to get the power you want, you need 12% throttle instead of 10%, but this is completely imperceptible while you're driving. You simply push the pedal until the car is doing what you want it to do. If we were talking about needing 20% throttle instead of 10%, then you'd have a perceptible change in response, but that isn't the case here. Air flows well enough through the compressor wheel that the difference isn't noticeable. If you want more power, you push the pedal a little more. Now, if you get to the scenario where you want more power, but can't push the pedal and further, then you've got a problem. That was the case with the small blower working with my M45. At full throttle, it was still restricting the air to the engine and robbing power. That is unacceptable. But not with the big one. That means that with the bigger one, the more I pressed the pedal, the more power I got and when I got to WOT, there was a big jump in power when the e-blower kicked in. There is never a restriction.

With all that out of the way, the next question is about what happens if you get to WOT and the blower doesn't kick in? What if you've run the batteries down or haven't armed the system? I had these questions as well. As for arming the system, this is meant to be armed at all times while you're driving. You don't just decide that you want to pass someone and then go and turn it on. Rob told me to just switch it on when you start the car so it's always there. This isn't meant for occasional use. It's meant to always be available. So that only leaves the question of the batteries.

Now I don't know how hard Fenton has tried to run them down, but I made this an active part of my testing. I did everything I could do while driving (and burned a LOT of gas in the process) trying to run down the batteries and simply couldn't do it. You just don't drive at WOT enough in anything resembling normal driving to run them down quicker than the charging system is recharging it. I don't really know what else I can say about that. I really tried. I'd say that it's impossible, but after some comments on the MCM forums, I now feel like I have to qualify that a little. I now say that it's impossible unless you have access to a speed-limit-free Autobahn. Apparently those guys drive for miles at WOT.

So the last thing I'd like to comment on is the idea of finely controlling the motor through more of the TPS range than just WOT. People have talked about OEM's and why they're not all using something like this for easy power gains. The fact is that they'd be out of their minds to sell a car with a system like this on it. It's an absolute blast for people like us that want more power and are going to have a lot of fun with it, but if people were buying cars that gave them a sudden blast of power at the end of the gas pedal range, they'd complain to the ends of the earth. So the solution to that would be to start the blower at a lower TPS level and ramp it up to full speed by the time you get to WOT. Essentially, this would make it work just like any traditional turbo in terms of drivability, which would be brilliant. Rob actually made some interesting charts showing the difference in power that this would create, and there was a little triangle of emptiness that gets filled in this scenario that wouldn't actually add peak power, but would certainly smooth out the drivability. If he ever gets to the point where that's feasible, then this would be a very viable OEM solution but I remain skeptical about how much more the batteries would be drained for no real gain in performance. It might be fine, but it might not be. As it is right now, the e-blower is only running when you want maximum power so it's got plenty of time to charge between uses. If you're running it a whole lot more to have your engine essentially behaving as an entirely larger engine, that may not be the case. It remains an unknown, but is definitely a big reason you'd never see something like this as OEM. You'll also never see a nitrous kit as OEM, for that that's worth. That doesn't mean it's not providing a big gob of power and huge smiles. It just means that this isn't the behaviour that a manufacturer wants in a new car.

I do hope some of this was helpful. If you've got any questions, by all means ask away. I had a ton of fun testing this thing and will be installing it in an RSX-S sometime over the next while. I rather expect the behaviour of that one, being a high-revving 200hp mill, to be very similar to what Fenton is experiencing.

[mid_life_crisis]

Originally Posted by Wild Weasel

you'll see that I tested two of these e-blowers and that the smaller of the two caused an intake restriction at higher rpm's when running with my M45.

But would the smaller one cause a restriction in an otherwise normal engine? That is, one that did not already have a supercharger on it?

[Wild Weasel]

Originally Posted by mid_life_crisis

But would the smaller one cause a restriction in an otherwise normal engine? That is, one that did not already have a supercharger on it?

No, it wouldn't on mine but it might on yours. Your engines are probably consuming volumes of air at the top of your RPM range similar to mine with the M45 on it. Remember that my redline is only around 6500. So really, you'd need to test it to find out, but I fully expect the bigger one to be the right size for you. I'll be doing this test on the RSX to see how they both behave, but again I expect the bigger one to be the right one. I'm likely also going to test a 2.3L Mazda3 this summer though, in which case I expect the smaller one to be right.

You definitely want the right sized blower for your engine and what you want to get out of it. I'm not sure whether Rob has more than two sizes in the works just yet, but let's talk about the two I had for a moment.

From my experience, I found that with the M45 disabled, the smaller one was a bit more fun. You can see from the charts that it created more boost on the bottom end, but less at the top. The difference in boost probably wasn't an issue in the fun factor though. It was the way it came on. While it may have only been a split second difference, I found that the smaller one had a bigger initial kick when using it. It seemed to come up to full blast perceptibly quicker.

Now... this may be out of date, because after my testing I sent the stuff back to Rob for inspection and he's replaced the compressor wheel in the bigger one with a lighter version. I expect that will translate into a faster spool up (which was by no means laggy or anything to begin with) and might make the two feel exactly the same.

For what it's worth, my very first "throw caution to the wind" run was with my M45 and the smaller blower together and with the 2.7" pulley on the M45. Just about instantly I hit over 10 psi. "HOLY CRAP!!" was the reaction followed by "Hmm... I wonder if my engine can take this... " And then I started throwing CEL's for random cylinder misfires and decided I needed to be a bit more careful. I do NOT recommend trying to make lots of power with 5 year old gas in the tank.

[Ingen]

Originally Posted by Wild Weasel

First is the question of restriction. If you've gone through my site and all the details, you'll see that I tested two of these e-blowers and that the smaller of the two caused an intake restriction at higher rpm's when running with my M45. That's definitely a problem. Of course, the solution is simply to use the larger one, which is a little less efficient on the bottom end, but more on the top and is easily able to keep up with my CFM requirements. That's what gave me the wonderfully level boost curve with added power all the way to redline.

Would it be possible to just put lightly sprung blow-off valve (blow-in valve?) after the air filter but before the compressor intake, that would bypass the compressor when it was turned off? Maybe put a small solenoid (wouldn't take much to just help it open) and have it lightly sprung so that when you were boosting it was forced shut?

If so, would it be helpful in running the smaller blower? Just curious - it's an idea that came to mind with this system.

[ft_sjo]

@Wild Weasel Is this based upon a R/C brushless motor or is it something bespoke?

[Wild Weasel]

Originally Posted by Ingen

Would it be possible to just put lightly sprung blow-off valve (blow-in valve?) after the air filter but before the compressor intake, that would bypass the compressor when it was turned off? Maybe put a small solenoid (wouldn't take much to just help it open) and have it lightly sprung so that when you were boosting it was forced shut?

If so, would it be helpful in running the smaller blower? Just curious - it's an idea that came to mind with this system.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Why are you trying to bypass the compressor? Again... if you're worried about a restriction in the intake... I must not have been clear in my explanation above. What are you trying to accomplish with this? If you're trying to get more air in while the compressor isn't running, you need to open the throttle a tad more. Is this seen as some sort of issue? If so, please explain how so I can better try to address it.

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

@Wild Weasel Is this based upon a R/C brushless motor or is it something bespoke?

I honestly haven't a clue. It's a black cylinder with a Phantom sticker on it. Sorry... that's all I've got.

When Rob sent me the blowers back after inspection though, the small one showed up with a pretty spiffy looking aluminum heat sink around it though. I doubt it's necessary for Toronto, but Arizona might appreciate it.

[Ingen]

Originally Posted by Wild Weasel

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Why are you trying to bypass the compressor? Again... if you're worried about a restriction in the intake... I must not have been clear in my explanation above. What are you trying to accomplish with this? If you're trying to get more air in while the compressor isn't running, you need to open the throttle a tad more. Is this seen as some sort of issue? If so, please explain how so I can better try to address it.

Your explanation was great - i only meant for it as a way to possibly address peoples' concerns with a physical fix, for those who would not otherwise be satisfied.

I want to drive this thing myself and figure out what I think of it

Have you had any issues with battery fatigue over time? I know you have had this on your car for a while - do the batteries wear out and need replacement?

[mid_life_crisis]

Originally Posted by mid_life_crisis

But would the smaller one cause a restriction in an otherwise normal engine? That is, one that did not already have a supercharger on it?

Originally Posted by Wild Weasel

No, it wouldn't on mine but it might on yours. Your engines are probably consuming volumes of air at the top of your RPM range similar to mine with the M45 on it. Remember that my redline is only around 6500. So really, you'd need to test it to find out, but I fully expect the bigger one to be the right size for you. I'll be doing this test on the RSX to see how they both behave, but again I expect the bigger one to be the right one. I'm likely also going to test a 2.3L Mazda3 this summer though, in which case I expect the smaller one to be right.

You definitely want the right sized blower for your engine and what you want to get out of it. I'm not sure whether Rob has more than two sizes in the works just yet, but let's talk about the two I had for a moment.

From my experience, I found that with the M45 disabled, the smaller one was a bit more fun. You can see from the charts that it created more boost on the bottom end, but less at the top. The difference in boost probably wasn't an issue in the fun factor though. It was the way it came on. While it may have only been a split second difference, I found that the smaller one had a bigger initial kick when using it. It seemed to come up to full blast perceptibly quicker.

The issue we are having is that the larger blower moves more air than the stock ecu maps can handle without throwing a code. This means that the larger one will require a tune.
Some of us are hoping that the smaller one will work well enough to provide a nice bump without having to resort to a tune to make everything safe, accepting that this would yield lower peak power numbers than the larger one.

[brichard0625]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nLiR6J9T3HI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nLiR6J9T3HI[/ame]

Nice run..going frame by frame i got 0-60 in 6.1 sec and your way above sea level. on a stock car with just a tune i got 6.8 0-60. that means that out here i with the blower i cud hit the low 5'S. I like it!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJanehBFq6o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJanehBFq6o[/ame]

[Wild Weasel]

Originally Posted by Ingen

Your explanation was great - i only meant for it as a way to possibly address peoples' concerns with a physical fix, for those who would not otherwise be satisfied.

I want to drive this thing myself and figure out what I think of it

Have you had any issues with battery fatigue over time? I know you have had this on your car for a while - do the batteries wear out and need replacement?

Sorry... I really can't address any concerns about longevity. My car has actually been in storage for the past 6 years. I got temporary tags to be able to do the full-bore testing on this thing for a week but now it's put away again. This is why I'm looking to put the kit on my friend's RSX for some regular usage.

Originally Posted by mid_life_crisis

The issue we are having is that the larger blower moves more air than the stock ecu maps can handle without throwing a code. This means that the larger one will require a tune.
Some of us are hoping that the smaller one will work well enough to provide a nice bump without having to resort to a tune to make everything safe, accepting that this would yield lower peak power numbers than the larger one.

Ah yes... I understand. My car is unique in that it was already set up for boost and the M45 is easily bypassed, which made for a great test-bed, but I had no worries at all about the car dealing with the boost. From what I've read here, isn't Fenton working on a solution to limit use to above 2000 rpm or some such thing?

Note that the larger one still sounds like the better solution for you guys. The smaller one made MORE boost at lower RPM's than the big one did. When you look at them, it's easy to assume that the bigger one is much more powerful and may make too much boost, but that isn't really the case. While it's obviously bigger and beefier, you have to remember that they're both doing the best they can with the 28 volt power supply they have. The size difference is more important in changing where they're efficiently moving and compressing the air, with the smaller one able to provide more compression at the bottom while the bigger one is able to move more air along all the way through. I know Rob will correct me if I've done a bad job explaining that, but you get the idea.

I do understand what you're getting at though. You're looking for a way to limit the max psi without losing any at the top end.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by mid_life_crisis

The issue we are having is that the larger blower moves more air than the stock ecu maps can handle without throwing a code. This means that the larger one will require a tune.
Some of us are hoping that the smaller one will work well enough to provide a nice bump without having to resort to a tune to make everything safe, accepting that this would yield lower peak power numbers than the larger one.

I think the small one would probably throw a code as well and would probably cause you to lose power above 7000rpm.

Not to mention being smaller it would be a constant restriction while off boost in comparison to the larger compressor.