Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[kavanagh]

@solidone , here is what I hope is a good example of using all the track.

It's my fastest lap on my second HPDE day. Which of course came at the end of the day when I decide to stop focusing on being fast, and to instead focus on my lines and smooth inputs (I may have failed that part). You'll see I ride almost every rumble strip, inside and outside.

The pic-in-pic reference lap is of someone else driving my car - he happened to set the TTD class lap record in his FRS earlier that day.

I'm also completely open to critique here, so fire away!

[ame]http://youtu.be/v-kjMkH4WsM[/ame]

[Wyattkb]

Originally Posted by kavanagh

I'm also completely open to critique here, so fire away!

You're so bad. Who let you on track?






Just kidding. Nice run, very smooth. I'm jealous you got to run on East track. It looks much faster than West track.

Also thanks for the info on Harrys lap timer. I got the app and an obd 2 bluetooth scanner so I can log some info next time.

Since we are posting track Vids I'll post mine. Critique away and keep in mind it was my first hpde.


https://vimeo.com/m/91688314

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by kavanagh

@solidone , here is what I hope is a good example of using all the track.

It's my fastest lap on my second HPDE day. Which of course came at the end of the day when I decide to stop focusing on being fast, and to instead focus on my lines and smooth inputs (I may have failed that part). You'll see I ride almost every rumble strip, inside and outside.

The pic-in-pic reference lap is of someone else driving my car - he happened to set the TTD class lap record in his FRS earlier that day.

I'm also completely open to critique here, so fire away!

So same disclaimer I gave earlier about my own newbishness and my never having been on that track and how you should ask the more experienced people before taking my advice, but here are some comments.

I think in turn 1 you did a really sharp turn in which, from what I could see in the video, was not really necessary and would probably cut quite a bit of speed off of your corner speed.

Also on the second apex of turn 4 you hit an early apex on what looks like it might work for a late apex to let you roll on the throttle earlier. I suspect this might be a result of fixation on the apex as you pass it (looking at that makes me think of all the times I've been early on an apex because I stared at it) but I am really not sure having not been on that track. Also the little video on the side looks like he hit a late apex too.

Some of the other larger (as in larger number of degrees of change) turns look like they might also have jerky turn ins but I am having trouble telling because the camera is vibrating quite a bit. At the same time it looks like some of the smaller turns are a lot smoother on your turn in. I suspect you might be anticipating the big turn and trying to aggressively start the turn; this unsettles the car and until it settles down you won't have nearly as much traction so your turn becomes slower. Basically (if I understand the dynamics right) you want to let the suspension on the outside of the car get loaded up before you get deep in the turn so that you have maximum traction through it.

[kavanagh]

Hahahaa! I snuck on...

The East track is a bit more flowy so you can link turns a bit more, but the West was awesome for being really technical and having a few turns that were great for practicing throttle steering. Your lap looked great to me, but I'll let the pros weigh in.

[ddeflyer]

kavanagh:

Also, it generally does look like a nice lap from what I can see...

[ddeflyer]

About the quick turn in, something I forgot to say, I think the reason you want to load the suspension more slowly is that if you just shove a bunch of force on one side as you turn in, then the suspension will spring back up and reduce traction. This is opposed to a more even turn in where you load it to a steady state with very little spring back.

[kavanagh]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

I think in turn 1 you did a really sharp turn in which, from what I could see in the video, was not really necessary and would probably cut quite a bit of speed off of your corner speed.

Spot on - turn 1 gave me trouble all weekend. It's about 105-110 degrees and just couldn't find the right turn in point.

Also on the second apex of turn 4 you hit an early apex on what looks like it might work for a late apex to let you roll on the throttle earlier. I suspect this might be a result of fixation on the apex as you pass it (looking at that makes me think of all the times I've been early on an apex because I stared at it) but I am really not sure having not been on that track. Also the little video on the side looks like he hit a late apex too.

Yup - this is the carousel, a double apex where you're supposed to diamond-shape the turn. Aim at that light pole under trail braking and then turn harder to rotate and get that late apex. My favorite turn, and also my second hardest after turn 1.

Some of the other larger (as in larger number of degrees of change) turns look like they might also have jerky turn ins but I am having trouble telling because the camera is vibrating quite a bit. At the same time it looks like some of the smaller turns are a lot smoother on your turn in. I suspect you might be anticipating the big turn and trying to aggressively start the turn; this unsettles the car and until it settles down you won't have nearly as much traction so your turn becomes slower. Basically (if I understand the dynamics right) you want to let the suspension on the outside of the car get loaded up before you get deep in the turn so that you have maximum traction through it.

I think you're right about turning in a little aggressively instead of more smoothly and not setting the suspension completely first.

Thanks man!
Or woman, it's the internet, and screen names mean almost nothing.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Slow down? I think I'm going pretty slow already, no? With my coasting into and gradual throttle(not stomping) increase out of the turn. Besides not tracking out what else is wrong about my lines. I think my lines through the esses were decent, no? Also, berms. Should hit it, as in roll over it with inside wheel, every time and every turn?

"Slow is smooth; smooth is fast."

Slowing down doesn't just mean decreasing your actual velocity. Slowing down means developing control.

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by chrisl

On this note (and I know the answer here is dependent on a lot of factors), what kind of tire pressures do you like to run for PSSs? Also, what kind of temperatures do you see them get up to?

I ran them on my STi so there were a bit of a difference than on a BRZ. Wish I had Tire Temps but don't have that data available.

The PSS did provide nice grip but not as much as the Direzas did, however the PSS lasted longer and were better in the rain and as a summer DD and track tire.

For the BRZ I have STi OEM take-offs right now and will eventually get either Hoosiers or R888s for a track only tire.

-Mike Paisan


Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

I'm curious what kind of advice veteran track day and racers would give a relative newb on skill development and when to start pushing limits with braking and throttle and steering.

My approach has been concentrating on being smooth with all inputs and familiarizing with track layout before pushing the limits of tire adheasion. Rather, slowly working up to pace. But... That's been the problem, progression for me has been slow if not nonexistent. Now, before you say 'hire a coach' I'd like to hear what you have to say about order of progression and what to concentrate on with each level of driving skill set development. And when should a newb begin to 'pooosh poooosh' without hurting skill development.

Also I think the 'don't worry about lap times' advice is bull. There is no way for me not to worry about lap times. Just not possible.

You're worrying too much about lap times.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DAWlspPiuI"]No mind - YouTube[/ame]

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

That's the area that I'm having the most trouble with, which is strange because that is the part I have the least trouble with on a motorcycle. I think it stems from not knowing what the tires are able to hold and also trying to be as smooth as I possibly can, so I tend to take it on the safe side and coast a bit. Although I do still trailbrake in on turns following faster sections or straights. Too much trailbrake, scrubbing more speed than required. Next is corner speeds. Again, stemming from not knowing what the tires are capable of holding (no confidence in the grip).

I have a hard time feeling the tire grip (the sensation between grip and slip), particularly with so much body roll on stock suspension. I believe even when I think it is about to let go, it actually still has more grip available. Another thing is I lack the skill and reaction to catch a slide when it does initiate. Because of that, 'I'd rather not go there.' Maybe I should learn to be more proficient at drifting to be more familiar with the sensation of tire slip and catching slides.

But next trackday I will take Mikes advice and concentrate on one section of the track. I already have an idea where. Thanks guys!

You should consider doing some skidpad exercises, so that you can safely explore the limits of your tires.

I'm organizing another day in the next 3 weeks or so; it'll be a weekday, and the cost will be well worth the seat time and confidence you gain. PM me if you're interested.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

While not quite as bad as this road, buttonwillow and streets of willow are both notoriously chewed up tracks.

Means you better have some damn good dampers, not lowering springs that are not matched to the oem dampers.

You read a lot of theory, you know how accurate that statement is.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Well here is a lap I did recorded on Harry's with the phone mounted behind the rear view mirror. I found this to be an ideal position if it doesn't get too hot to overheat your phone.

This was 4pm in the afternoon, and I'm worrying about why I haven't gone any faster. Please try not to fall asleep. http://s174.photobucket.com/user/sol..._5286.mp4.html

All I see is that I'm not going fast enough not carrying enough speed and wondering if I should downshift at the double apexes. Does this not look smooth? I think I clipped most of the apexes as well. Also, not sure if I'm not giving enough pressure to get a point by. Please critique!

Originally Posted by solidONE

Yeah your right SLOW in fast out has been the way I've been driving to keep smooth. And me not using the entire track is a result of not going speeds high enough to require the use of the entire width of the track. Cutting the turns and sticking on the inside is an attempt to reduce distance traveled and using the excess grip I have available.

To be fair that road I'm very familiar with and the setup I had was more conducive to wheel spin (stiffer springs, harder tires). Tho like I said buttonwillow and streets of willow are very bumpy tracks.

This one is on the house.

T1/2 - You're coasting a LOT. You're cornering without brake OR throttle input. What happens if you corner on a bike with no input? Remember, your steering controls the front tires, throttle controls the rear tires, and brakes control weight transfer.

T3 - you turn in early, hesitate on steering ( i see a low of change in the rate of yawing), and do not track out all the way. You also missed the apex completely. Don't rely on cones.

T4/5 - Again, missed both apexes, and you don't throttle until you're all the way through the turn. But, you did give it maintenance throttle.

T6/7 - You apexed when you shouldn't. You missed the braking zone between the two corners, and turned in for 7 early. You missed track-out on both corners. Again, throttled only when you're completely out. Catching a common theme here? Also, *listen* to your exhaust. you see how you abruptly go from partial to full throttle? That is not a smooth throttle input. Your sawing at the steering wheel, however minute, is not a smooth steering input. You turn into a corner, too much, and get to the apex quickly. Then you ease up to hold the apex, and then continue to hold it too long, and miss track-out. Make the turn one big smooth arc.

T8/9/10 - You need to hug t9 to set up for T10. T10 sets you up for a long straight.

T11/12 - You tuned into 11 too late. T12 you missed track-out.

T13 - Why are you on the middle? out-in-out is the fastest way in a single non-complex corner that is preceeded and followed by a straight. Instead, you late apexed, and then missed track-out again.

T14 - Turn in earlier, track out fully.

T15 - missed track out again.

T16/17 - varies by setup.


CVR is a motorcycle track, and the car lines are identical to bike lines. Pretend you're riding.

As a point for comparison, in a 100% stock car, my average cornering speed is generally 15-20mph faster than yours, except in the T8/9/10 complex. My average on-track velocity in a lap is about 10mph faster (66 in your lap vs 76)

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ayau

Never heard of this philosophy before. Shortest distance traveled doesn't mean the fastest driving line. I thought you wanted to be a faster driver.

The driving line allows you to carry the most speed. You may not be using all of the tires' available grip now, but once you become faster, you'll want to drive that line.

Shortest distance theory applies, but not in the way @solidONE is applying it. I think he's trying to utilize something that Motortrend noticed; Randy Pobst generally travels a shorter distance on track than most of the magazine editors.

Don't focus on distance. Focus on efficiency.