Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[jvincent]

@7thgear,

Good point about just trying it out. I'm still a newbie, so I figured I'd ask here to see if there might be any downsides.

@GSG Mike, thanks. Since I'm new, technique is going to be an issue for a while still. I'm still working on hitting my lines consistently well so adding a new variable might not be the best thing yet.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

if 2nd isn't breaking loose, then yes, as long as your technique is sound.

I don't think the answer is that simple. The fact is, it takes time to change gears. In this situation, he is choosing between two gear changes or no gear changes. If each one takes 1/4 second (just throwing numbers around), that's half a second he's giving up. Granted, the car is still moving, so it's not like his lap time drops by the same amount of time he spends shifting, but he will lose SOME time. He has to make up AT LEAST that much time to justify making the gear changes, as:
1. It's harder on his car mechanically (minimal)
2. It may affect how smooth he can be in line and footwork
3. It is more difficult to stay right on the edge of control
Maybe he just needs a little better alignment and/or tires to carry a tiny bit more speed through the turns and his decision will be easy.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Pat

I don't think the answer is that simple. The fact is, it takes time to change gears. In this situation, he is choosing between two gear changes or no gear changes. If each one takes 1/4 second (just throwing numbers around), that's half a second he's giving up. He has to make up AT LEAST that much time to justify making the gear changes, as:
1. It's harder on his car mechanically (minimal)
2. It may affect how smooth he can be in line and footwork
3. It is more difficult to stay right on the edge of control
Maybe he just needs a little better alignment and/or tires to carry a tiny bit more speed through the turns and his decision will be easy.

it's just 1 extra gear change..


and area under the curve is area under the curve, if he lands in the powerband and not spinning, he'll always be faster than trying to drive out of a bogged gear (4000rpm is bogged down to me)


this just requires better technique because he'll need to change gears into a higher revving engine without clutch kicking the car,


but the sooner you learn that the better it will be in the long run.


fast and reliable gear changes under extreme conditions is just one of the things that separate the best form the rest

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by Pat

I don't think the answer is that simple. The fact is, it takes time to change gears. In this situation, he is choosing between two gear changes or no gear changes. If each one takes 1/4 second (just throwing numbers around), that's half a second he's giving up. He has to make up AT LEAST that much time to justify making the gear changes, as:
1. It's harder on his car mechanically (minimal)
2. It may affect how smooth he can be in line and footwork
3. It is more difficult to stay right on the edge of control
Maybe he just needs a little better alignment and/or tires to carry a tiny bit more speed through the turns and his decision will be easy.

If I were to do this, I would definitely go from 4th straight into 2nd while I'm braking. No need to mess around with 3rd slowing down.

Points 2 and 3 are the ones that I am a little worried about. I'll have to think about where I'd be upshifting because there are elevation changes and multi-apex corners involved.

Good point on the tires. I have been running the stock Primacies while I learn and they have a lot of wear after three full days at that track and a total of probably 80-85 laps.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Pat

I don't think the answer is that simple. The fact is, it takes time to change gears. In this situation, he is choosing between two gear changes or no gear changes. If each one takes 1/4 second (just throwing numbers around), that's half a second he's giving up. Granted, the car is still moving, so it's not like his lap time drops by the same amount of time he spends shifting, but he will lose SOME time. He has to make up AT LEAST that much time to justify making the gear changes, as:
1. It's harder on his car mechanically (minimal)
2. It may affect how smooth he can be in line and footwork
3. It is more difficult to stay right on the edge of control
Maybe he just needs a little better alignment and/or tires to carry a tiny bit more speed through the turns and his decision will be easy.

Strictly mechanically speaking, 2nd gear offers approximately 55% more torque to the wheels than 3rd gear (~4k 3rd gear vs ~6k 2nd gear).

Yes, the shift takes time, but executed well, power is only disrupted on the upshift, and is more than made up for by the extra power in 2nd, if traction is not lost.

If it affects how smooth the driver can be, then it is a skill that should be practiced, although if car control and line is the focus, then forgoing the shift is advisable.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by jvincent

After looking at some logs from yesterday's track session, I have a question about shifting.

My car is NA, with an OFT tune. The track I go to has 20 turns, including some very sharp ones.

My current approach to the sharp corners is to downshift into 3rd at the entry to these turns, keep steady power in third through the turn, and then accelerate out. According to the logs from Harry's lap timer I never get below 4000RPM in 3rd so I am well above the torque dip for the FRS.

My general question is would I be better off going into the turns in 2nd, thereby gaining a little bit of a power advantage coming out of the turn, but requiring an extra shift in the following straights to maximize my speed?

The wrinkle in this is that torque starts to fall off at around 6500 RPM so I'm not sure whether I would be in 2nd long enough to offset the shift.

I'm guessing this is for T14 at Calabogie? Only other corner would be T12 but that one's a 2nd gear corner for sure.
Keeping T14 in 3rd is better because you can maintain grip and be smoother without shifting down and back up, downside is you have to wait for the power to come on (as you climb the hill too) but chances are high that you can be quite a bit more consistent if you just leave it in 3rd.

I have done it both ways with my car and when in 2nd, the car wants to slide out on the off-camber uphill turn. Third gear.

Keeping the higher gear also forces YOU to find ways to gain more speed into that corner to make gearing work better. I think @CSGMike has mentioned this a few times in this thread also.

I'll post up my vids later tonight in the Calabogie thread.

Track map so others understand too....

[jvincent]

14 is definitely one of the ones I'm curious about, but my question was really more general since I'm curious about the best way to make use of the power band.

Looking at the map I wonder if 17-20 might even benefit from second to hit the front straight faster.

[Slick]

It's a good question. Until you build up speed, you are kinda stuck between which one is better. But the key is actually finding the right line and speed through these corners so you can stay in 3rd until the straight.

[Chillracing]

The way I always approach gearing is trying to find a gear I don't have to shift out of mid corner. Of course there are exceptions to this rule if you have a long increasing radius corner you might go from 2nd gear speeds to 3rd gear speeds through the corner. If say the car had a power band that started strong at 4500 and I was at 4000 in 3rd I wouldn't worry about trying 2nd for that short bit of better acceleration. However if I was way out of the power band I'd try it and see. The best way to tell is just to try it one way and find some sort of landmark to check your speed at then try it the other way and see if it's better or worse. You can do this with trying different lines and gears etc.

[THEmailman]

Mike,

This past weekend at VIR, my instructor made some suggestions in regards to my steering inputs. Specifically, he was noting that I was giving too much input on initial turn in and then using the throttle (and some steering) to make my way through the rest of the turn. I believe that this could have been the cause of some understeer on initial turn in as well, but I was on new tires and camber plates for the first time so it could be due to that as well.

Tire temps were within 1-2 degrees of each other across the inside, middle and outside and pressures were ~38 hot. I'm on Goodyear Eagle F1's with stock suspension and Raceseng CamCas plates, with ~ -3 degrees of camber up front and -1 in the rears and an extra degree of caster up front. Only other mods are pads, lines and fluid.

I wish I had in car video to show you, but my question is how can I work on slowing my inputs down and make my steering more linear, both on and off track? And what might be some signs that I am turning in too much initially (ie loud tires, understeer, etc)? Thanks!

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by THEmailman

Mike,

This past weekend at VIR, my instructor made some suggestions in regards to my steering inputs. Specifically, he was noting that I was giving too much input on initial turn in and then using the throttle (and some steering) to make my way through the rest of the turn. I believe that this could have been the cause of some understeer on initial turn in as well, but I was on new tires and camber plates for the first time so it could be due to that as well.

Tire temps were within 1-2 degrees of each other across the inside, middle and outside and pressures were ~38 hot. I'm on Goodyear Eagle F1's with stock suspension and Raceseng CamCas plates, with ~ -3 degrees of camber up front and -1 in the rears and an extra degree of caster up front. Only other mods are pads, lines and fluid.

I wish I had in car video to show you, but my question is how can I work on slowing my inputs down and make my steering more linear, both on and off track? And what might be some signs that I am turning in too much initially (ie loud tires, understeer, etc)? Thanks!

What's up, we had the same instructor (Jeff) I was the silver BRZ in HPDE 1.

[AZP Installs]

Update from NJMP this past weekend...

Conti Take-offs were amazing. Haven't driven on race tires in about 6 years and forgot how much they make a difference...

Still charting the temps on this car as well...

Ambient- 80-83F
Coolant- 195-203 w/Koyo Racing Rad
Oil Temp- 265-275 no cooler, Motul V300 5w30 Engine Oil

We will have the OEM 2015 WRX Oil Cooler on this car for our next event so hopefully we can get some hard data for you guys on how much it cools it down. After that we'll be testing out some OTS oil coolers as well.



-Mike Paisan


Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[THEmailman]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

What's up, we had the same instructor (Jeff) I was the silver BRZ in HPDE 1.

Cool man! Sorry I didn't meet you, but if I remember correctly you had NY plates on the car...? There were quite a few 86's at this event so that was nice. Hopefully Jeff gave you some good instruction as I felt my post was about the only useful thing he did for me.....

[bimmer635csi]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Trans/Diff/Engine fluid intervals are best determined by used oil analysis, but if you don't want to do that, changing more often won't hurt anything except your bank account.

This should not be taken as fact. Truth is, overchanging engine oil can lead to premature engine wear because you end up pumping air through the bearing surfaces every time you drain the oil down.

I'm not saying that every 5k is too frequent, just that there is such a thing as "changing more often CAN hurt things". This isn't the case on the diff and manual trans because they are just dip-lubed, but for automatics and engines (i.e. things with fluid pump lubricated surfaces), it can be a problem.

Also, it increases the risk of getting a cross-threaded plug on any unit because you have a small chance of that happening each time you unplug and replug the pan.