What you HATE the most on your FR-S/BRZ/GT86/FT86?

[regal]

Originally Posted by chas3wba0

@dnieves Foreal, you think Toyotas don't have issues? Better to have a rattly interior than a sticky gas pedal, and I take it you haven't been reading about the MILLIONS of Toyotas recalled for possible airbag failure among other safety issues?

And the spark plugs being difficult to change is a Boxer engine thing, no way around it. If it's a deal-breaker, then you have plenty of other options to choose from. Plus you should only have to do it once, maybe twice, during the life of the car

Sticky gas pedals and airbag failures aren't a big deal to me, these are easy fixes. Head gaskets, ring/lands, and rod bearings aren't (common Subaru issues they deny).



I didn't bring up the plugs, they aren't hard to change.


But you are saying this engine is only good for 120 to 180k miles (every 60k miles), that's terrible. I can show you several Toyota videos of cars turning 500k with little more than spark plugs, brake pads, and tires changed. I really hope you are wrong.

[dnieves]

Originally Posted by chas3wba0

@dnieves Foreal, you think Toyotas don't have issues? Better to have a rattly interior than a sticky gas pedal, and I take it you haven't been reading about the MILLIONS of Toyotas recalled for possible airbag failure among other safety issues?

And the spark plugs being difficult to change is a Boxer engine thing, no way around it. If it's a deal-breaker, then you have plenty of other options to choose from. Plus you should only have to do it once, maybe twice, during the life of the car

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe any car manufacturer is perfect especially with the current spate of recalls (including GM's equally fatal ignition lock issue they've buried for years, Honda's 900k Odyssey that catch on fire, & Mazda's spider issue). I just have a concern with Toyota not handling the entire 86 project in house with tighter quality controls. It's well known the Toyota team was initially met with resistance from Subaru and I feel this tenuous relationship will hurt the car in the future (Subaru won't make the changes needed to make it a proper rag top -too much chest pounding instead of attaining the common good/sales). Don't you think a company like Toyota would have the resources to handle the 86 project -something that which would result in sales to the masses instead of a technological vanity project like the LFA? Thankfully the problems we have are relatively minor but on forums like these they get magnified and I worry casting these cars in a negative light will leave us stuck with an orphaned auto. Minor rookie issues include condensation in tail lights (which Subaru now calls normal operation and Toyota requires a small puddle to even address it) and misaligned body panels. There's no reason for the chirping not to have been properly resolved by now (more insulation and using ethanol free gasoline? Come on!) What about leaky injector seals? As for the spark plugs, it's just another annoyance that makes the FR-S slightly not as tuner friendly as its competitors. Not to put the car down at all (I still love it) but it would be a shame to see it abandoned by Toyota and Subaru.

[regal]

Originally Posted by dnieves

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe any car manufacturer is perfect especially with the current spate of recalls (including GM's equally fatal ignition lock issue they've buried for years, Honda's 900k Odyssey that catch on fire, & Mazda's spider issue). I just have a concern with Toyota not handling the entire 86 project in house with tighter quality controls. It's well known the Toyota team was initially met with resistance from Subaru and I feel this tenuous relationship will hurt the car in the future (Subaru won't make the changes needed to make it a proper rag top -too much chest pounding instead of attaining the common good/sales). Don't you think a company like Toyota would have the resources to handle the 86 project -something that which would result in sales to the masses instead of a technological vanity project like the LFA? Thankfully the problems we have are relatively minor but on forums like these they get magnified and I worry casting these cars in a negative light will leave us stuck with an orphaned auto. Minor rookie issues include condensation in tail lights (which Subaru now calls normal operation and Toyota requires a small puddle to even address it) and misaligned body panels. There's no reason for the chirping not to have been properly resolved by now (more insulation and using ethanol free gasoline? Come on!) What about leaky injector seals? As for the spark plugs, it's just another annoyance that makes the FR-S slightly not as tuner friendly as its competitors. Not to put the car down at all (I still love it) but it would be a shame to see it abandoned by Toyota and Subaru.

I think in general cars aren't as well made as pre-OBDII and especially with the upcoming OBDIII automakers are forced to sacrifice reliability for meeting gvt regs around the world. For example in general DI has not proven as reliable as good old bosche port injection.


This FA20 is a one-off, we won't see a DS-4 powered boxer in any other car, which leaves us consumers a little vulnerable to high parts cost and unskilled technicians.


Brining up and discussing issues with our twins is a good thing the sooner problems are brought to light the sooner Toyobaru, the aftermarket, or folks on this forum can find solutions.


You forgot the VVT noise/camshaft wear issue that could be a big one

[dnieves]

Originally Posted by regal

I think in general cars aren't as well made as pre-OBDII and especially with the upcoming OBDIII automakers are forced to sacrifice reliability for meeting gvt regs around the world. For example in general DI has not proven as reliable as good old bosche port injection.


This FA20 is a one-off, we won't see a DS-4 powered boxer in any other car, which leaves us consumers a little vulnerable to high parts cost and unskilled technicians.


Brining up and discussing issues with our twins is a good thing the sooner problems are brought to light the sooner Toyobaru, the aftermarket, or folks on this forum can find solutions.


You forgot the VVT noise/camshaft wear issue that could be a big one

Great, I gave up on my RX-7 because the few people that knew anything about rotaries charged so much they forced my hand resulting in me dumping the car and buying brand new.


Problems need to be exposed and remedied but the way some people here whine about the minor stuff including Consumer Reports flipped its opinion on the Twins does nothing but scare off potential buyers.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by regal

OK Toyota didn't outsource just the manufacturing of the car. Subaru did the heavy lifing and was involved in the engineering. Toyota mainly did the concept and styling. We own a Subaru with Toyota DS-4.

Involved in the engineering?? Tada was the chief engineer. I would say that's more than involved.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Involved in the engineering?? Tada was the chief engineer. I would say that's more than involved.

Well its hard to explain if you haven't worked at a big vehicle maker. Where I work we once did a "joint" project with Porsche and saw very little of them. Chief engineers are management, they go to a lot of meetings, bring departments together, and are a spokespersons. Just watch the Toyota development videos, the working engineers talking about all they did to get things to work are Subaru. Even the 6 speed manual that is supposed to be Toyota is transmission is cast Subaru.


If you're really curious, line up three cars. A new imprezza, the Tc, and the FRS. Look at all the mechanics, the suspension, engine, etc, on and off a lift. Its pretty obvious who did the engineering.


Its also obvious Toyota did the design, the lines, the styling. Many people confuse this with engineering.


One last item to describe what I am saying, the car was chosen to have Toyotas D4-S fuel injection. Yet we have a Subaru sourced and mostly programmed ECU.


Anyway you look at it, Subaru did a lot more than manufacture the vehicle. They made it work.


I am not a fan of Tada, his nearsightedness not to let Subaru use a variant of their FA20T in this car. I personally think avoiding DIT was a mistake. Rather than using Subaru's SOA DIT tech he dusted of D4-S and did not give us an engine with classic smooth N/A throttle response.


I think Akio Toyoda did more to make this car happen than Tada self-purports.




All in all for a joint venture Subaru did a great job with the car and its a keeper.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by regal

Well its hard to explain if you haven't worked at a big vehicle maker. Where I work we once did a "joint" project with Porsche and saw very little of them. Chief engineers are management, they go to a lot of meetings, bring departments together, and are a spokespersons. Just watch the Toyota development videos, the working engineers talking about all they did to get things to work are Subaru. Even the 6 speed manual that is supposed to be Toyota is transmission is cast Subaru.


If you're really curious, line up three cars. A new imprezza, the Tc, and the FRS. Look at all the mechanics, the suspension, engine, etc, on and off a lift. Its pretty obvious who did the engineering.


Its also obvious Toyota did the design, the lines, the styling. Many people confuse this with engineering.


One last item to describe what I am saying, the car was chosen to have Toyotas D4-S fuel injection. Yet we have a Subaru sourced and mostly programmed ECU.


Anyway you look at it, Subaru did a lot more than manufacture the vehicle. They made it work.


I am not a fan of Tada, his nearsightedness not to let Subaru use a variant of their FA20T in this car. I personally think avoiding DIT was a mistake. Rather than using Subaru's SOA DIT tech he dusted of D4-S and did not give us an engine with classic smooth N/A throttle response.


I think Akio Toyoda did more to make this car happen than Tada self-purports.




All in all for a joint venture Subaru did a great job with the car and its a keeper.

Actually I do know what it's like working for a big car manufacturer. I was a Project Manager for DENSO for over 8 years, working on major new vehicle development and launch. I even worked on a joint venture between Toyota and Tesla to produce the electric RAV4.

Just because the twins use many Subaru sourced parts, remember that these parts are made to spec by the parts suppliers that manufacturer them (most of them are the same suppliers that with Toyota).

Toyota knew they couldn't spend all out on this project, and obviously had to look to a parts bin of sorts, that was already available with Subaru. It wasn't like Toyota had much in way of small car performance parts on hand...Subaru did.

Also keep in mind there are some Toyota "parts bin" major components on these cars too (auto tranny as example).

I'm not saying that Toyota did everything, but to say that they designed the exterior and the 4D-S and that's all, is simply not correct.

[Jegan_V]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Actually I do know what it's like working for a big car manufacturer. I was a Project Manager for DENSO for over 8 years, working on major new vehicle development and launch. I even worked on a joint venture between Toyota and Tesla to produce the electric RAV4.

Just because the twins use many Subaru sourced parts, remember that these parts are made to spec by the parts suppliers that manufacturer them (most of them are the same suppliers that with Toyota).

Toyota knew they couldn't spend all out on this project, and obviously had to look to a parts bin of sorts, that was already available with Subaru. It wasn't like Toyota had much in way of small car performance parts on hand...Subaru did.

Also keep in mind there are some Toyota "parts bin" major components on these cars too (auto tranny as example).

I'm not saying that Toyota did everything, but to say that they designed the exterior and the 4D-S and that's all, is simply not correct.

You're right, in that neither Toyota nor Subaru did everything. In order for this car to have even been released it had to be a team of both Toyota and Subaru engineers. The engines that came up before the project got off the ground was either a flat engine or a rotary engine. Had Tada decided against the flat engine, this likely wouldn't have been a Toyota/Subaru venture but instead more likely a Toyota/Mazda venture(which is happening with the new Yaris/Mazda 2). For sure, the prototype car which used the Legacy as a base was all Toyota, as a demonstration to Subaru of how serious Toyota was about the concept. At that point it was more of a question of whether Subaru would like to join or whether Toyota will go at it alone. They joined, which resulted in Team 86.

Me? I'm glad my two favourite auto companies actually did this joint venture to make an excellent car. My Toyota Cressida was an excellent car. My Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS was also an excellent car. This car takes almost all of the best aspects I liked of my previous two cars and combine them into one lovely car. I have high confidence this car will be as durable and as trouble free as my previous cars were.

[Sport-Tech]

C'mon, team - you can do it, you're almost there! 100 pages on what you hate about the car - let's go!

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by dnieves

Minor rookie issues include condensation in tail lights (which Subaru now calls normal operation and Toyota requires a small puddle to even address it) and misaligned body panels. There's no reason for the chirping not to have been properly resolved by now (more insulation and using ethanol free gasoline? Come on!) What about leaky injector seals? As for the spark plugs, it's just another annoyance that makes the FR-S slightly not as tuner friendly as its competitors. Not to put the car down at all (I still love it) but it would be a shame to see it abandoned by Toyota and Subaru.

Toyota replaced my tailights without a puddle, just condensation. I haven't heard any Toyota/Scion customers complain about pushback. BRZ owners, on the other hand, get screwed, both on this and the fuel pump. And I havent had any misalignment issues, this appears to have been mostly within the early run of the twins.

The seal failure issue, to this point, has only appeared on a relative handful of cars, and even those (almost all, I believe) have been subject to high-rev, high-temp track use. I don't think this is going to be an issue for us normal everyday drivers

[dnieves]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

Toyota replaced my tailights without a puddle, just condensation. I haven't heard any Toyota/Scion customers complain about pushback. BRZ owners, on the other hand, get screwed, both on this and the fuel pump. And I havent had any misalignment issues, this appears to have been mostly within the early run of the twins.

The seal failure issue, to this point, has only appeared on a relative handful of cars, and even those (almost all, I believe) have been subject to high-rev, high-temp track use. I don't think this is going to be an issue for us normal everyday drivers

Having puddles in the tail lights is the only way to get Subaru to assist, misaligned body panels has been remedied! Chirping is a mystery and hopefully seal failure is a isolated byproduct of abuse.

[Chattanooga FR-S]

I hate that I am not yet at my 1,000 mile mark so I can REALLY go have some fun with her! :-)

[Tromatic]

I hate the damn rock-ding on my hood.

[Tromatic]

I hate how how White shows dirt so easily.