Suspension Geometry

[einrejosh]

Hi guys, I just got an alignment from Speed Element on monday 2/9. I installed Fortune Auto 500s and Stance lower control arms since in most pictures the rears seem to not go so low. I installed them myself since I am not baller enough to pay people for labor. I did everything right of course, preload and ride height all using a caliper. Only problem was camber in the front and rear, and rear toe. So I fix my alignment enough in my garage to have it drive-able to Speed Element, and they tell me if I want to go -2 degrees in the front I need camber bolts, so I went ahead and bought it and now here's my question.

-Does my suspension geometry get messed up if I have two camber adjustments on each side? (eccentric bolt and top hat) and none of them match?

-Why this concerns me is because the both top hats are at different measurements, and both bolts are at different measurements. I would rather have the top hats maxed out as a reference point and adjust the eccentric bolts since maxing out the top hats barely gave me any negative camber and then just adjust the eccentric bolts.

On another note, I will no longer be going to Speed Element for service. I feel they half assed my alignment, they half assed the install of the eccentric bolt, they didn't torque anything down from what I saw. I couldn't observe the Tech working on my car, even though I'm a Tech myself, they did the alignment where its "good" on paper but less likely when you drive it, their Techs took multiple smoke breaks, and only one of them is ASE certified, which sometimes matters if you care about your car and who works on it. All in all, I feel Speed Element is a Performance Show Car shop only for show, the only reason I would only go here in the future is because of one of the sales rep, Jason, he would have to be the coolest there. I'll probably just go here for parts now in the future.

On another note, this place has a shit ton of awards for their Evos, so I say check em out for that, but that's all.

I'll upload some pics later of my car, but yeah, if anyone can answer my question that would help, I'll just get an alignment else where.

-Final alignment specs, -2 degrees in the front, 0 toe, -1.5 in the rears (need after market toe arms to go less camber) and .09 toe.

[wparsons]

Are you sure the upper mounts were installed correctly? I have -2* up front without adjustable upper mounts, just whiteline bolts and slightly slotted upper holes.

From a geometric standpoint, you're better off maxing out the camber at the knuckle then adjusting further at the upper mount. The less you increase the angle of the strut the better.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by wparsons

From a geometric standpoint, you're better off maxing out the camber at the knuckle then adjusting further at the upper mount. The less you increase the angle of the strut the better.

This. Max out the bolts for a better SAI.

It would be unacceptable to me to have the camber plates and bolts set differently side-to-side. That gets you different SAI on each side, and an off center roll center (I think). The difference may be minor, but that's not the way to do an alignment.

- Andy

[einrejosh]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Are you sure the upper mounts were installed correctly? I have -2* up front without adjustable upper mounts, just whiteline bolts and slightly slotted upper holes.

From a geometric standpoint, you're better off maxing out the camber at the knuckle then adjusting further at the upper mount. The less you increase the angle of the strut the better.

Yeah I installed it correctly it's just my car had been in an accident causing the left caster to be 5.8 I think compare to the right. That may have been the reason why my camber was still close to 0 when maxed out. Same problem when I had stock suspension, my right side had more camber than the left

[einrejosh]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

This. Max out the bolts for a better SAI.

It would be unacceptable to me to have the camber plates and bolts set differently side-to-side. That gets you different SAI on each side, and an off center roll center (I think). The difference may be minor, but that's not the way to do an alignment.

- Andy

So max bolts out and adjust top hats after for better SAI is what you're saying?

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by einrejosh

So max bolts out and adjust top hats after for better SAI is what you're saying?

Yup.

- Andy

[OmarYasin]

Originally Posted by einrejosh

Hi guys, I just got an alignment from Speed Element on monday 2/9. I installed Fortune Auto 500s and Stance lower control arms since in most pictures the rears seem to not go so low. I installed them myself since I am not baller enough to pay people for labor. I did everything right of course, preload and ride height all using a caliper. Only problem was camber in the front and rear, and rear toe. So I fix my alignment enough in my garage to have it drive-able to Speed Element, and they tell me if I want to go -2 degrees in the front I need camber bolts, so I went ahead and bought it and now here's my question.

-Does my suspension geometry get messed up if I have two camber adjustments on each side? (eccentric bolt and top hat) and none of them match?

-Why this concerns me is because the both top hats are at different measurements, and both bolts are at different measurements. I would rather have the top hats maxed out as a reference point and adjust the eccentric bolts since maxing out the top hats barely gave me any negative camber and then just adjust the eccentric bolts.

On another note, I will no longer be going to Speed Element for service. I feel they half assed my alignment, they half assed the install of the eccentric bolt, they didn't torque anything down from what I saw. I couldn't observe the Tech working on my car, even though I'm a Tech myself, they did the alignment where its "good" on paper but less likely when you drive it, their Techs took multiple smoke breaks, and only one of them is ASE certified, which sometimes matters if you care about your car and who works on it. All in all, I feel Speed Element is a Performance Show Car shop only for show, the only reason I would only go here in the future is because of one of the sales rep, Jason, he would have to be the coolest there. I'll probably just go here for parts now in the future.

On another note, this place has a shit ton of awards for their Evos, so I say check em out for that, but that's all.

I'll upload some pics later of my car, but yeah, if anyone can answer my question that would help, I'll just get an alignment else where.

-Final alignment specs, -2 degrees in the front, 0 toe, -1.5 in the rears (need after market toe arms to go less camber) and .09 toe.

I go to motorsport techniques. They are very familiar with our platform. As far as i know u should max the cam bolt and do final adjustments via camber plate-omar

[OmarYasin]

Originally Posted by einrejosh

Yeah I installed it correctly it's just my car had been in an accident causing the left caster to be 5.8 I think compare to the right. That may have been the reason why my camber was still close to 0 when maxed out. Same problem when I had stock suspension, my right side had more camber than the left

There should always be more caster on one side i believe driver side

[NissanGuy]

If you think they half-asses it, they might have. What was your SAI after alignment?

[Black Tire]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

This. Max out the bolts for a better SAI.

It would be unacceptable to me to have the camber plates and bolts set differently side-to-side. That gets you different SAI on each side, and an off center roll center (I think). The difference may be minor, but that's not the way to do an alignment.

- Andy

uhh… what is SAI ?

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Black Tire

uhh… what is SAI ?

Steering axis inclination.

- Andy

[einrejosh]

Originally Posted by NissanGuy

If you think they half-asses it, they might have. What was your SAI after alignment?

I'll have to look for the paper work from before. I went to toyota for my last alignment(oem still) and big O before that (still oem) and both gave me the second paper with SAI but Speedelement didn't give me the second paper with the SAI so I'll just assume they didn't give it or want to give it to me because of half ass labor.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Black Tire

uhh… what is SAI ?

Steering axis inclination.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUcZ63unEyU[/ame]

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by einrejosh

Yeah I installed it correctly it's just my car had been in an accident causing the left caster to be 5.8 I think compare to the right. That may have been the reason why my camber was still close to 0 when maxed out. Same problem when I had stock suspension, my right side had more camber than the left

Caster doesn't affect camber with the wheels straight ahead... if you have unequal camber side to side, try re-centering the subframe.

Are the camber plates on the right side of the car? Usually if you're not getting significant negative camber from the plates it's because they're on the wrong side.