BRZ vs Old 911

[Ganthrithor]

I'll keep this brief. Lately, I've been very torn: on the one hand, my BRZ is very practical, drives really nicely, and I love it to death. On the other hand, I've always been a little bit obsessed with old 911s, and I still find myself wanting one. Ideally this wouldn't be a problem, and I'd just go out, buy myself a 911, and have both an excellent DD and an old Porsche to tool around in. Unfortunately, I don't really have enough money to own both a BRZ and a 911, which leaves me in an awkward position: either sell the BRZ (which is my perfect, practical, "compromise" car) and buy a less-practical car, or keep the BRZ (which makes all the sense in the world), but keep lusting after old Porsches while I watch their value go up and the value of my car go down, which will ultimately make it even harder to buy a 911 later on.

What do you guys think? Do the sensible thing and keep the BRZ, or sell the BRZ while the depreciation hit is still small and buy something that won't depreciate, but will also cost more to run and be a little less practical?

Here's the list of pros and cons I've mulled over:

BRZ

Pros:

• Drives stupidly well for something that cost ~$32k to put together.
• Practical: token rear seats, plenty of contiguous cargo volume with the rear seats folded, etc.
• Cheap to run: good on gas if I drive it with economy in mind, cheap tyres, warranty means no significant expenses beyond brake pads and fluids.
• Reliable: zero issues with the car so far, and doesn't look like there should be any big problems to anticipate down the road based on high-mileage owners' experiences on this board.

Cons:

• Not a 911 (a pretty unfair criticism, but one that comes to mind anyway).
• Expensive to insure for what it is (I could certainly insure a Porsche for a similar premium)
• Gets pretty much as poor gas mileage as a 911 when driven around town (mostly because I can't help but use a lot of throttle when driving it on any kind of fun road because it's so fun to push it hard)
• Will depreciate significantly over the next few years
• Modern feel: I sometimes find the BRZ's computer systems annoying... there's something nice about cars without driver aids. Visibility out of the BRZ is also not great, which is a problem endemic to new cars... it's decent for a new car, but compared to old cars the visibility sucks, especially out the rear quarters.
• Drives really well: It's also a con :P . The BRZ drives fantastically... so well that it sometimes feels like it's too forgiving of driver error and not as much of a challenge as other cars.
• Not a 911

Old 911

Pros:

• It's old: no driver aids, simpler cabin, lighter weight (depends on the year... marginally-lighter for an SC, considerably lighter for mid-70's cars or earlier), way better visibility due to lower waistline / more glass.
• Sounds better: there's no substitute for flat-six howl.
• More challenging to drive quickly: harder to drive smoothly than the BRZ, less tolerant of driver error, but more rewarding when you get things right.
• Won't depreciate: while it seems like there's a bubble going on in the really old 911 market (the 73 and older cars), the later 70's and 80's cars are priced quite reasonably and it seems unlikely that they'd depreciate significantly over the next few years. If anything, they seem likely to appreciate slightly.
• Should be very reliable if properly maintained.
• Actually costs significantly less to insure than a BRZ... go figure!
• Is a 911.

Cons:

• It's old: no driver aids, not as safe as the BRZ, more maintenance-intensive than the BRZ (shorter service intervals, and more expensive to work on).
• Worse highway / gentle-driving fuel economy than the BRZ.
• Less practical: it retains the BRZ's token rear seats, but you don't get to fold those down for a giant trunk. Front trunk would provide plenty of space for daily tasks, but forget about moving chunky items around... wouldn't be doing airport pickups in the 911 the same way I can in the BRZ.
• No warranty: if something does go wrong, you're going to be stuck with a hefty repair bill.

I've been perusing listings for old 911s for about a month now, trying to get a feel for the market. It seems like the old long-hood cars are pretty much out of my price range ($20k will often only buy you an engine-less hulk that needs a bunch of bodywork and a new engine/trans), or a complete car that's completely rusted through). OK prices can be found on mid-70's cars, but they're probably the least desirable of the bunch (they combine the rust problems of the older cars with engines that are quite problematic). The best deals seem to be the SCs and late 80's cars, which have fully galvanized chassis and solid engines, and can be had for fairly reasonable prices (they cost about the same as a BRZ... from low twenties to around $30k).

So far, I haven't found the right car yet... I had a lead on a really nice late 80's car, but it was too expensive for me to buy without selling my BRZ first. I found a decent-looking 1973 911T RS-lookalike on the east coast, but it was also too expensive. I've found a few cars on Craigslist that looked like serious contenders that I wanted to go have a look at in-person, but I wasn't able to get a response from the sellers. So, thus-far I haven't found the right car, and so haven't had to make a serious decision. But one day I might find the right car at the right price. What would you guys do if you did?

I'm finding it really difficult to figure out what I want to do. I really don't want to sell my BRZ, but I also really want an old 911 and really couldn't afford to have both at the same time. The BRZ is definitely the "better" idea if you only look at this specific moment in time, but when you look at it over the next five years, depreciation on the BRZ makes the Porsche look like a much more viable / less financially-insane option. What do you guys think?

[Doctor Who]

You've basically summed up my daily struggle. I've always lusted after an older 911, especially after stumbling upon magnus walker's work http://magnuswalker911.blogspot.com/ but ultimately I just can't justify the "leap of faith" to have an older 911 as my dd. But I still check craigslist and pelican parts classifieds every other day.

[Rampage]

Owning a 911 has been my lifelong passion also. I came close to buying one in 1981. It was a 77 911. I had money in hand and then the seller told me the car would need the valves adjusted and a new heat exchanger box. A call to the local Porsche dealer for a price quote for the needed work deep sixed my plans to buy the car. I bought a 280Z instead.

Years later, when all my kids were grown and living their own lives, I once again lusted after a 911. This time it was a 97. The owner would not budge on the price and I could buy 2001-2003 911 cheaper (though I hated them). I bought a 350Z instead.

Now, I drive a 2ZZ powered MR-S. It is more reliable and faster than the 77 911 that I lusted for all those years ago. Maintenance cost and frequency on it is a fraction of what the 97 911 would be.

I still stop and stare wistfully when I see a well maintained early style 911 on the road. I know now that I will never own one. I have gotten way too practical in my old age. But if practicality and money was no object then.....................

Good luck with your decision.

[gramicci101]

Are you checking rennlist, 6speedonline, pelican parts, and the other Porsche forums for cars? You can find some really interesting stuff. I know 6speed is geared more towards 996's and up, but they do have older cars there too. If you could find a clean 930 turbo slant nose, that would be sexy as hell.

[FRStock]

Something to consider is that the BRZ price will depreciate while the old 911 will appreciate.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Are you checking rennlist, 6speedonline, pelican parts, and the other Porsche forums for cars? You can find some really interesting stuff. I know 6speed is geared more towards 996's and up, but they do have older cars there too. If you could find a clean 930 turbo slant nose, that would be sexy as hell.

Yeah, I'm a member over at Rennlist and the early 911s registry. I've been keeping my eyes open

[BlueDubbinTDI]

owning a 1972 911 is on my bucket list. This isnt much of a conundrum though because that old 911 as a DD would just be foolish. The reliability would be atrocious.

[campy]

I own an old-ish 911. For proof (and because pictures are cool), here's a shot of me driving it poorly around an autocross track:



This is a 1996 993 c2. It's an absolute blast to drive. Having the engine in the back allows you to point the car in the direction you want to go, hit the gas, and then go without any tailsliding. The engine is peppy and it has enough horsepower to keep you excited on the street and on the track. Mine has had a bit of work done to it, but from what I remember, it was reasonably comfortable (for a sports car) on stock suspension. It's also a head-turner. I've watched random people come up and take pictures with it. Plus I once won best car at a Subaru show.

As for the bad, everything is expensive, you will need a mechanic with special, Porsche-specific tools, and the interior layout and materials are crap. Sitting inside it really makes you understand how Porsche almost went bust a while ago; luxury car prices and economy car interior. The BRZ's interior, on the other hand, is set up very well. It's comfy, the seats really hold you, and personally, my FRS fits me like a glove. The Porsche's interior works, but it just isn't as well designed as the FRS/BRZ.

I know you're going for a 70s or 80s vintage, and those come with their own sets of problems, like with any classic car. Classics don't make good DDs.

If I had to choose between owning either a BRZ or my Porsche, I would pick the BRZ simply because it is more comfortable, practical, reliable, and economic. Keep in mind what you will be doing with this car and what you will need from it.

But if you're just buying it as a weekend car, then definitely get the Porsche.

[Bg8780]

I was looking at 996's before I bought my BRZ. I too struggled with this decision. My dad ended up getting a 2003 996 Targa for around $30k. IMS bearing was already taken care of and everything so he got a pretty good deal. This is my first car I bought on my own so I need the reliability for a DD and a warranty should anything go wrong. I'm glad I bought the BRZ but driving the 996 still makes me wonder what life could have been like with the engine in the back. lol If it's your die hard DD, go with a BRZ.

It's also my lifelong dream to end up with a 2011 GT3 RS 4.0 in the garage. But I'd be happy with a regular 997 too if the funds aren't available for the 4.0l

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by campy

I own an old-ish 911. For proof (and because pictures are cool), here's a shot of me driving it poorly around an autocross track:



This is a 1996 993 c2. It's an absolute blast to drive. Having the engine in the back allows you to point the car in the direction you want to go, hit the gas, and then go without any tailsliding. The engine is peppy and it has enough horsepower to keep you excited on the street and on the track. Mine has had a bit of work done to it, but from what I remember, it was reasonably comfortable (for a sports car) on stock suspension. It's also a head-turner. I've watched random people come up and take pictures with it. Plus I once won best car at a Subaru show.

As for the bad, everything is expensive, you will need a mechanic with special, Porsche-specific tools, and the interior layout and materials are crap. Sitting inside it really makes you understand how Porsche almost went bust a while ago; luxury car prices and economy car interior. The BRZ's interior, on the other hand, is set up very well. It's comfy, the seats really hold you, and personally, my FRS fits me like a glove. The Porsche's interior works, but it just isn't as well designed as the FRS/BRZ.

I know you're going for a 70s or 80s vintage, and those come with their own sets of problems, like with any classic car. Classics don't make good DDs.

If I had to choose between owning either a BRZ or my Porsche, I would pick the BRZ simply because it is more comfortable, practical, reliable, and economic. Keep in mind what you will be doing with this car and what you will need from it.

But if you're just buying it as a weekend car, then definitely get the Porsche.

Hahaha, it was funny seeing that picture and then reading about how the 911 won't oversteer Nice slide! I know what you mean, though: I'm somewhat familiar with old 911s. My mom drives a 1970 911T (with a Sportomatic gearbox, no less, as well as 911S suspension), and my dad's got a 1997 (IIRC) 993 that's had some suspension tweaks done plus an RS clutch and lightweight flywheel.

I love the 993. I've driven ours in many scenarios (mostly weekend fun driving, but also on a couple of roadtrips and occasionally around town as well), and every time I climb out of it I can't help but feel that it's a perfect road car: it's power-to-weight ratio strikes that perfect balance between providing enough grunt to be exciting, but not so much that the car can be driven quickly without working it. Same with the power-to-grip ratio... I can't remember exactly what tyre sizes we're running right now, but basically there's just enough grip that the car doesn't feel loose, but will move around if you intentionally work hard at provoking it. Then there's that engine, which is also perfect: it provides enough torque in the mid-range that you don't feel the need to wring it out around town, but is also happy to pull to redline. It's also one of the best-sounding engines I've ever heard (ours has Fister's stage 2 muffler conversion, which really lets the engine speak its mind).

If I had the money, I might well consider a 993. There was a gorgeous one listed on Rennlist the other day... forty grand for a well-sorted one configured almost exactly like ours. If I had the money I'd have been sorely tempted by it. Unfortunately, 993s are out of my price range. I'm not as bothered by this as I might otherwise be since there's one in my family that I get to drive fairly often. One day I may buy one of my own, but in the meantime I'm sort of limited to things that are worth approximately the same amount as my BRZ or less.

I agree with you regarding the BRZ's interior: our cars are extremely comfortable. I, too, find that my BRZ fits me like a glove-- it's a very apt analogy: it really does feel like the BRZ just wraps around you and puts you in the perfect position for controlling the car. On the other hand, I don't find old 911 interiors uncomfortable by any means. They're certainly not fancy, and the seating position is an acquired taste, but I love those simple VDO gauges and the general austerity of the cabin. They're a lot like our BRZs, really... they've got everything you need to drive the car, and not much you don't. I do prefer the outward visibility of the 911 cabin to the BRZ's by a large margin as well.

Regarding reliability, I never got the impression that older Porsches were unreliable if properly maintained. Are they that bad? I know that every engine has weak points, and that the 2.7 liter engines are just generally maintenance-intensive, but it seems like it's not that hard to find cars where common weak points have been addressed or retrofitted (newer chain tensioners, valve covers, etc). Similarly, I know the 915 gearbox needs to be treated properly to avoid accelerated wear, but I already tend to treat gearboxes fairly carefully (even on the BRZ I like to take my time with shifts unless I really need to accelerate quickly for a freeway ramp or something), so I didn't think that would be a huge problem. Have you had any surprising issues with your 993?

Originally Posted by Bg8780

I was looking at 996's before I bought my BRZ. I too struggled with this decision. My dad ended up getting a 2003 996 Targa for around $30k. IMS bearing was already taken care of and everything so he got a pretty good deal. This is my first car I bought on my own so I need the reliability for a DD and a warranty should anything go wrong. I'm glad I bought the BRZ but driving the 996 still makes me wonder what life could have been like with the engine in the back. lol If it's your die hard DD, go with a BRZ.

It's also my lifelong dream to end up with a 2011 GT3 RS 4.0 in the garage. But I'd be happy with a regular 997 too if the funds aren't available for the 4.0l

996s are an incredible bargain in terms of car for the money. It's not very hard to find cars that have had the IMS/RMS issues addressed, and they never cost very much money. I've seen a few 996s on Rennlist that I've been tempted to buy just on principle, despite the fact that I don't want a 996! My reason for not buying a 996 is that in my mind they're just too modern to justify trading off the practicality of the BRZ. The only reason I'm considering swapping out of my BRZ is that it would be fun to drive a car that's "worse"-- harder to drive, un-computerized, etc. The 996 just didn't fit that bill. In terms of performance per-dollar, though, the 996 is an insanely good deal.

[campy]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Regarding reliability, I never got the impression that older Porsches were unreliable if properly maintained. Are they that bad? I know that every engine has weak points, and that the 2.7 liter engines are just generally maintenance-intensive, but it seems like it's not that hard to find cars where common weak points have been addressed or retrofitted (newer chain tensioners, valve covers, etc). Similarly, I know the 915 gearbox needs to be treated properly to avoid accelerated wear, but I already tend to treat gearboxes fairly carefully (even on the BRZ I like to take my time with shifts unless I really need to accelerate quickly for a freeway ramp or something), so I didn't think that would be a huge problem. Have you had any surprising issues with your 993?

Actually, allow me to backpedal on what I said earlier... my Porsche has been much more reliable than my FRS. I need to get my fuel pump and taillights replaced for the second time

The 993 has been more reliable than I think anyone would have expected. The previous owners babied it, but it's now at well over 100k miles with a good percentage being as a track car, and it still has the original clutch. Engine/trans has never been taken out. The only work that's needed to be done was the usual maintenance.

My experience with most German cars is that they're bulletproof until the warranty expires, but that definitely doesn't apply to this car haha.

[Turbo Den]

I have a 1978 911sc with lots of mod... about 200whp. It's my autox car, not very competitive in mod class. anyway, When the FRS first came out, scion brought two cars to our autox event and asked us to test drive. In my first lap, my time in FRS (with race tires) is already as fast as my 911sc on agreesive street tires. The FRS is so much easier to drive fast. ultimately the 911 will be faster, but challenging (and thus more fun too). Day After the autox, I bought my FRS as DD. they say race on Sunday, sell on Monday... it's true.

My 2 cents...
The 911 actually can hold more stuff with front trunk and rear seats. I can fit much bigger items in 911 than in FRS.

911 is safer than FRS in the rain because better traction.

My 911sc is very reliable. Cheap to maintain. Easier to work on than FRS.

You will get way more thumbs up in a 911.

Ultimately they are very different car made for the same type of driving enthusiast.

Go for where your heart is. get the 911 NOW.
If you regret, you can always sell 911 and buy the brz back at a lower price.

[spitz]

I agree with Turbo Den. Right now is the time to buy a 911. I purchased two in the last year, a 1969 911T and 1977 930 Turbo Carrera (spent under $35k for both combined). The right deals are out there, you just got to be very quick to pick them up. Unfortunately, it's gotten to the ridiculous point where you are constantly battling with dealers to buy cars. The 911 isn't necessarily more expensive to own, I'd say... If you find the right car that has been maintained the right way, I think you'll find it relatively inexpensive.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this in the thread, but the 911's are a better investment (if you care about that kind of thing). The BRZ/FRS will be worth below $20k in the next five years, while a 911 can only really go up or hold value. As you mentioned, the early long hood cars are virtually unobtainium now at low prices. Unless, you will consider a 912 that can be easily hotrodded.

In the end, I think you should try it. Sell the BRZ for maybe $20-25k, depending on your car's condition/miles, buy an older 80's 911. Make sure you keep your eyes out for the right options and color, which will be VERY important for resale. It's always nice to have a unique 911 too, as a lot of cars were customized and special ordered. Worse comes to worse, you change your mind... Sell the car for potentially more money than you paid for, buy the FRS/BRZ again. The driving experience in these cars is amazing, you feel so one with the road. The air-cooled sound also helps

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by Turbo Den

I have a 1978 911sc with lots of mod... about 200whp. It's my autox car, not very competitive in mod class. anyway, When the FRS first came out, scion brought two cars to our autox event and asked us to test drive. In my first lap, my time in FRS (with race tires) is already as fast as my 911sc on agreesive street tires. The FRS is so much easier to drive fast. ultimately the 911 will be faster, but challenging (and thus more fun too). Day After the autox, I bought my FRS as DD. they say race on Sunday, sell on Monday... it's true.

My 2 cents...
The 911 actually can hold more stuff with front trunk and rear seats. I can fit much bigger items in 911 than in FRS.

911 is safer than FRS in the rain because better traction.

My 911sc is very reliable. Cheap to maintain. Easier to work on than FRS.

You will get way more thumbs up in a 911.

Ultimately they are very different car made for the same type of driving enthusiast.

Go for where your heart is. get the 911 NOW.
If you regret, you can always sell 911 and buy the brz back at a lower price.

Originally Posted by spitz

I agree with Turbo Den. Right now is the time to buy a 911. I purchased two in the last year, a 1969 911T and 1977 930 Turbo Carrera (spent under $35k for both combined). The right deals are out there, you just got to be very quick to pick them up. Unfortunately, it's gotten to the ridiculous point where you are constantly battling with dealers to buy cars. The 911 isn't necessarily more expensive to own, I'd say... If you find the right car that has been maintained the right way, I think you'll find it relatively inexpensive.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this in the thread, but the 911's are a better investment (if you care about that kind of thing). The BRZ/FRS will be worth below $20k in the next five years, while a 911 can only really go up or hold value. As you mentioned, the early long hood cars are virtually unobtainium now at low prices. Unless, you will consider a 912 that can be easily hotrodded.

In the end, I think you should try it. Sell the BRZ for maybe $20-25k, depending on your car's condition/miles, buy an older 80's 911. Make sure you keep your eyes out for the right options and color, which will be VERY important for resale. It's always nice to have a unique 911 too, as a lot of cars were customized and special ordered. Worse comes to worse, you change your mind... Sell the car for potentially more money than you paid for, buy the FRS/BRZ again. The driving experience in these cars is amazing, you feel so one with the road. The air-cooled sound also helps

Yeah, I was looking at 912s to convert, but finding ones in passable shape is hard and competition for them is fierce... there were two cars where I contacted the seller the same day they posted their ads and never heard back from them, which I assume means that someone bought them straight away. I was really bummed cause I found a non-running 69 912 only an hour away from my house that looked like it had been yanked out of storage... body looked really good. The guy only wanted $7k for it. Emailed him about the car, didn't hear back for three days, and then the ad was removed by the seller (which I assume means it probably wasn't a scam). So frustrating when people don't get back to you!

Currently I've got my eye on an SC that's a bit rough around the edges aesthetically, but looks well-sorted mechanically. I figure I could probably "make" about $5k swapping my BRZ for the SC, and then save another ~$5k in depreciation over the next few years. Of course, some of that will be eaten up by 911 running costs, which I expect will be a bit higher than the BRZ, but that's not the end of the world.

I guess I really just hate the idea of selling my BRZ! I've got it setup just the way I like it, and I'm quite fond of it

Hell, maybe I'll be super irresponsible: buy the 911 and try to keep both cars for as long as I can. YOLO, right?