Evo: GT86 VS MX-5

[Sigh-on-Rice]

[wootwoot]

Cool. Thanks.

[DarkSunrise]

Interesting data in this video about the new Miata giving up time to the GT86 on the straights.

C&D just had its annual Lightning Lap at VIR. The new Miata was more than 2 seconds slower than the BRZ. ND Club-Spec Miata @ 3:20.8 vs. BRZ @ 3:18.6.

I think the data is showing that the Twins will be faster at longer tracks (e.g., VIR), and the ND Miata will be quicker at tighter/twistier tracks (e.g., SOW).

[why?]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Interesting data in this video about the new Miata giving up time to the GT86 on the straights.

C&D just had its annual Lightning Lap at VIR. The new Miata was more than 2 seconds slower than the BRZ. ND Club-Spec Miata @ 3:20.8 vs. BRZ @ 3:18.6.

I think the data is showing that the Twins will be faster at longer tracks (e.g., VIR), and the ND Miata will be quicker at tighter/twistier tracks (e.g., SOW).

Still all about the tires. The reason the BRZ is better at so called faster tracks is because handling is not as important, so tires are not as important.

[swarb]

Originally Posted by why?

Still all about the tires. The reason the BRZ is better at so called faster tracks is because handling is not as important, so tires are not as important.

What are you trying to say? So the brz IS faster at longer tracks. But at shorter tracks?

[xyborg]

Originally Posted by swarb

What are you trying to say? So the brz IS faster at longer tracks. But at shorter tracks?

I think what he's trying to say is that on shorter tracks tire grip becomes more important and that the twins give up tire grip, well on stock tires anyway.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by why?

Still all about the tires. The reason the BRZ is better at so called faster tracks is because handling is not as important, so tires are not as important.

The new Miata also has a stronger torque-to-weight ratio than the Twins, so I'm guessing it's pulling out of slower corners better (in addition to having more cornering grip as you mentioned).

The Twins are probably making up ground towards the end of straights where they can stretch their legs and use their aero advantage.

[strat61caster]

I like this comparison the best so far, very positive on both, less negative on one over the other in any category.
Highlighted the biggest detriment of the 86 for me stock, the built-in understeer and I'm glad to hear praise for the ND's engine, I was a little worried that the SkyActiv would fall flat.

Originally Posted by why?

Still all about the tires. The reason the BRZ is better at so called faster tracks is because handling is not as important, so tires are not as important.

[why?]

I'm saying both cars are awesome, and if you put them both on the exact same tires the results are going to be identical. Every one of these comparisons have been close enough to point to the tires being the only real difference. The lighter weight of the miata is gigantic and helps in tighter corners and tracks but it doesn't look like it makes more of a difference than the difference of the tires.

The fact that C&D actually had the BRZ lapping faster than the Miata is surprising and it points to the BRZ engine is better and that the tires are a gigantic weakness.

People that laugh at pointing to the tires are living decades ago, tire technology is truly amazing, and the right tires can make even the worst car handle really well.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by why?

I'm saying both cars are awesome, and if you put them both on the exact same tires the results are going to be identical. Every one of these comparisons have been close enough to point to the tires being the only real difference. The lighter weight of the miata is gigantic and helps in tighter corners and tracks but it doesn't look like it makes more of a difference than the difference of the tires.

People that laugh at pointing to the tires are living decades ago, tire technology is truly amazing, and the right tires can make even the worst car handle really well.

An 86 'upgrading' to the same class of tire that comes on the Miata was worth 0.2 seconds around Willow Springs, the track that the ND came out on top by ~1s.

Skip to 6:00 to get to the point, note that the S04's tested are listed as performance tires, the S001's spec'd as OEM on the new MX-5 (same tire around the world so as tested in the UK as well) are listed as low rolling resistance per Tirerack.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSqWD5BSeoY"]Testing Tires with Subaru BRZ, Ford Mustang & BMW 328i! The Downshift Ep. 65 - YouTube[/ame]


Yup the tires would have put them neck and neck in this EVO test for sure, but the Miata has 83% of the weight and ~95% of the engine of the 86 and as mentioned in every video a much more competent suspension setup off the showroom floor (double wishbones give it a noticeable advantage in front end grip as explicitly called out in this video that the 86's front end is lacking in comparison). Tires won't overcome that in a test of handling as shown above where the 86 is on similar rubber to what the ND comes spec'd with (actually bigger rubber at 215 vs 205) and only get marginal improvements.

The Primacy's are seriously underrated.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

An 86 'upgrading' to the same class of tire that comes on the Miata was worth 0.2 seconds around Willow Springs, the track that the ND came out on top by ~1s.

Skip to 6:00 to get to the point, note that the S04's tested are listed as performance tires, the S001's spec'd as OEM on the new MX-5 (same tire around the world so as tested in the UK as well) are listed as low rolling resistance per Tirerack.

Yup the tires would have put them neck and neck in this EVO test for sure, but the Miata has 83% of the weight and ~95% of the engine of the 86 and as mentioned in every video a much more competent suspension setup off the showroom floor (double wishbones give it a noticeable advantage in front end grip as explicitly called out in this video that the 86's front end is lacking in comparison). Tires won't overcome that in a test of handling as shown above where the 86 is on similar rubber to what the ND comes spec'd with (actually bigger rubber at 215 vs 205) and only get marginal improvements.

The Primacy's are seriously underrated.

To be fair, there are tests that show the GT86 gains 2 seconds on a ~1:20 course upgrading to RE050A's (also same class of tires on a stock ND Miata), so there's evidence going both ways. Not all max performance tires are the same. I don't have any personal experience with the S04's in the TireRack test, but they could just be particularly crappy MP tires for the category.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

To be fair, there are tests that show the GT86 gains 2 seconds on a ~1:20 course upgrading to RE050A's (also same class of tires on a stock ND Miata), so there's evidence going both ways. Not all max performance tires are the same. I don't have any personal experience with S04's in the TireRack test, but they could just be particularly crappy MP tires for the category.

Maybe so, but the S001's were chosen as the baseline OE tire (in run flat options) for the BMW in that video, now a good chunk of the time (0.7s) gained going to another Max Performance tire (Yoko V105) was from ditching run flats but I think part of it is also ditching a tire classified as low rolling resistance.

"Max Performance" Tire also includes the MPSS (which can give some 'extreme's' a run for their money), you're right there are great tires and mediocre tires in every class, most people who care aren't futzing around with ~300TW options so it's hard to guage where the S001's fall in line, but the fact is that Bridgestone calls that a LRR tire and the S04 description babbles on about performance applications...

Edit:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....+Pole+Position

The Potenza S-04 Pole Position is Bridgestone's Max Performance Summer tire developed for the drivers of ultra high performance sports cars, coupes and sedans who want to feel the rush of driving their vehicle. Potenza S-04 Pole Position tires are designed to perform in warm, wet and dry conditions. However like all summer tires, they are not intended to be driven in near freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....l=Potenza+S001

The Potenza S001 is Bridgestone's Max Performance Summer tire developed as Original Equipment for premium high-performance sports cars, coupes and sedans. The Potenza S001 is designed to combine low rolling resistance efficiency with maximum sports performance in dry and wet conditions. However, like all summer tires, they are not intended to be driven in near freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice.

[DAEMANO]

Watching the video a few notes:

The cars as equipped for the test were essentially a draw at the track. The MX-5 is absolutely tiny inside with the top up and that body roll, wow. It was also noted that the Miata was optionally equipped with an LSD.

The presenter made a very clear point that the GT86's Primacy's contribute to it's both its' under and oversteer. In his words:

"the tires are made for sliding". "The GT86 will maintain a slide in a way the Miata will not". "The MX-5 will also slide around but you can't do it on power alone".

Most importantly the conclusion at 9:10:

"In the end just one tenth of a second separates the two cars. The MX-5 may be 40 horsepower down on the GT86, but it's much lighter and it has grippier tires. So the Mazda is the faster of the two just, but the GT86 was more fun. "

If the MX-5 gets an optional LSD upgrade then equal tires should be considered for the GT86 which would obviously make the 86 quicker at probably any track than this Miata.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Maybe so, but the S001's were chosen as the baseline OE tire (in run flat options) for the BMW in that video, now a good chunk of the time (0.7s) gained going to another Max Performance tire (Yoko V105) was from ditching run flats but I think part of it is also ditching a tire classified as low rolling resistance.

"Max Performance" Tire also includes the MPSS (which can give some 'extreme's' a run for their money), you're right there are great tires and mediocre tires in every class, most people who care aren't futzing around with ~300TW options so it's hard to guage where the S001's fall in line, but the fact is that Bridgestone calls that a LRR tire and the S04 description babbles on about performance applications...

Edit:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....+Pole+Position

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....l=Potenza+S001

Yeah you could be right. I don't put much emphasis on treadwear ratings, but it's notable that Bridgestone makes all 3 tires and rates the RE050A's as 140 TW vs. 280 TW of the S001 and S04PP.

It could be that the RE050A's are much stickier MP tires than the S001 and S04PP.