Drift-Office : Vortech SC with and without Header - Case Study / Discussion?

[Drift-Office]

FYI, this post was made in response to requests to quantify / justify the purchase of a $1100 header when employed with a SC / FI solution. Feel free to discuss!

Vortech Build :
Ref : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43053

HKS Equal Length Header Results :
Ref : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41525

Vortech Build with HKS Equal Length Header :
Ref : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45835

So the general consensus is that an FI product such as the Vortech (or any other SC unit) would yield better results when used in conjunction with other bolt ons such as a header. We recently had a chance to tune the Vortech SC setup on two different cars and the results were well, surprising.



^^^ Granted that we are talking about two different cars, but both are identically setup post header: Perrin overpipe, front pipe and 2.5 inch exhausts.



^^^ As one can see, there were gains to be had - the mid range is even flatter now and the top end revs out much more efficiently as well.



So the HKS EL header did it's thing, and while there were gains to be had, I felt that the price to performance ratio wasn't where it should have been. Both cars were running Chevron 92 Octane with 10 PSI pulleys and both cars had cam timing tuned for optimal results. The implications would lead you to believe that after a certain point, there's only so much the FA20 can dish out...


Regards!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

[dabocx]

Not the best for the price but its a still a nice upgrade for those that have the kit. I wonder if that intake a vendor made will help more or if theres a limit you can do with the 10psi pulley.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Both cars were running Chevron 92 Octane with 10 PSI pulleys and both cars had cam timing tuned for optimal results.

I seem to recall some tuners ( maybe it was @moto-mike or @DeliciousTuning ) stating that a header will allow the tuner to make some more cam timing changes that didn't quite work as well with the stock header (Especially on the exhaust cams). Was this your experience as well?

This one may be wishful thinking, but is there any chance the car owners would be willing to swap headers for a few dyno runs in the name of science? Then we'd have 2 sets of dynos from 2 different cars both on stock and aftermarket headers.

[bfrank1972]

This actually makes sense to me - on most of the dynos I've seen, the header really improves the torque dip much more than anything else. The investment in a header (1100 is one expensive header!) without if was very much to remedy the nasty torque hole the fa20 has - while fi inherently does the same thing. The combination provides an even better midrange, but for those seeking a "good enough" power band, or those on a budget, may well want to invest their funds elsewhere. All depends on who you are, and your goals, but for me I'd probably invest the 1100 in a flex fuel setup instead of headers at this point. Ymmv

[welllam]

Given we have that extra grand, instead of header, what should be done in term of better gain value?

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 4

[R2]

I'm curious about the torque differences at 2000rpm - is this just from applying full throttle at different rpm's for the two cars on the dyno or is the output of the stock headered car that much more around there?

[Sonolin]

Hurry up, Nameless Performance! I want to see that header on a Vortech

Looks like good consistent gains from the HKS btw.

[sw20kosh]

This is excelent! Tests like these are very informative. Lets see some more headers!

[Cal3000]

Originally Posted by welllam

Given we have that extra grand, instead of header, what should be done in term of better gain value?

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 4

Injectors, fuel pump, and a dyno tune can probably give you better gains and will get rid of that hp dip after 6.5k rpm.
Injectors $300-$400
Fuel pump $130
Tune depends on the tuner.
If EL headers are added to this combo, I'm pretty sure you can hit or almost hit 300whp on 9psi pulley with pumped gas.

Guys at Evasive down here in SoCal got a bone stock Vortech on 91 oct to 250whp on a mustang dyno with just a fuel pump and injectors.

[welllam]

Originally Posted by Cal3000

Injectors, fuel pump, and a dyno tune can probably give you better gains and will get rid of that hp dip after 6.5k rpm.
Injectors $300-$400
Fuel pump $130
Tune depends on the tuner.
If EL headers are added to this combo, I'm pretty sure you can hit or almost hit 300whp on 9psi pulley with pumped gas.

Guys at Evasive down here in SoCal got a bone stock Vortech on 91 oct to 250whp on a mustang dyno with just a fuel pump and injectors.

I heard mixed feedback with stock injectors and pump, some said its useful, same said no useful with stock piston and pumpgas.

Are these cars cat-less?

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by Cal3000

Injectors, fuel pump, and a dyno tune can probably give you better gains and will get rid of that hp dip after 6.5k rpm. If EL headers are added to this combo, I'm pretty sure you can hit or almost hit 300whp on 9psi pulley with pumped gas.

That's a lot of assumption about what's going on after 6500 rpm. Plus, I doubt you'll hit 300WHP with pump gas, 93 octane or not. Certainly not with the Vortech SC and any EL header of that combination.

Well maybe, perhaps if it revved out past 10000 RPM...

Originally Posted by xjohnx

I seem to recall some tuners stating that a header will allow the tuner to make some more cam timing changes that didn't quite work as well with the stock header (Especially on the exhaust cams). Was this your experience as well?

For the NA setups, ABSOLUTELY. What we're finding that in a FI SC setups like this, it didn't matter as much, oddly enough.

Originally Posted by xjohnx

This one may be wishful thinking, but is there any chance the car owners would be willing to swap headers for a few dyno runs in the name of science? Then we'd have 2 sets of dynos from 2 different cars both on stock and aftermarket headers.

I'll do one better - I just had another FRS come in with a Borla UEL and will be swapping out for the HKS (latter is sold out till 10/22) and when that comes in, it would be a direct 1:1 comparison at that point. Stay tuned, as always!

Originally Posted by welllam

I heard mixed feedback with stock injectors and pump, some said its useful, same said no useful with stock piston and pumpgas.

Are these cars cat-less?

It really comes down to the fuel used, as the FA20 is very octane sensitive. And both cars had a Perrin 2.5 inch Catted Front Pipe too.

Regards,


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

[empower-auto]

Didn't someone else make better gains with a different header? This probably isn't a good judge of the ultimate yes or no on a header being worth it with this kit. Expensive header + not overly impressive result = test different headers perhaps?

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by empower-auto

Didn't someone else make better gains with a different header? This probably isn't a good judge of the ultimate yes or no on a header being worth it with this kit. Expensive header + not overly impressive result = test different headers perhaps?

Not sure who you might be thinking but the HKS ELs have proven to yield the most consistent gains (>190WHP NA) with 92 Octane from all the headers tested at this facility - so it would be a natural assumption that the header with the most ability when used on a Vortech or Innovate SC unit would yield the most gains.

Clearly not so the case.

I'm not sure how many more Vortech SC kits have gotten 270 with 92 Octane, and most we were seeing was 255 - 265 without the header, again, in line with the octane used. There was one 'guy' that made more power with a UEL and a "pump gas" tune using E85, but that car has since burnt to the ground unfortunately, and henceforth has been exempted from the current pool of candidates.

Cheers,


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

[rskdsk]

"It really comes down to the fuel used, as the FA20 is very octane sensitive. And both cars had a Perrin 2.5 inch Catted Front Pipe too."


VERY sensitive! I found this out first hand.