Who else is Amazed at the OEM Clutch & Brakes?

[LBC Por Siempre]

I would just like to express the Amazement and Awe that this car instills in me sometimes.

For this/these cars we read so many threads that in the build threads or where ever else that someone has added this modification and left the rest of the car alone. Most times this includes leaving the Stock Clutch and Brakes alone while the car pushes out more that 300whp or more. To me that is amazing! Usually manufacturers will only put parts that will work with the amount of power it produces; let alone almost Twice the amount of the power!!!!!!

For instance in the Porsche world the NEWER 911 Turbos (997.2/991) that have the PDK - Double Clutch Transmissions are close to their limits with the power, from the factory, that you can push out of them. For instance you wouldn't want to push more than say 600 Crank HP out of them. That is true for the 997.2, not too sure for the 991 Turbos. But they do have a PDK-S (Sport) version for their GT3 model 911 991 cars.

How much "OVER" engineered is this car? Did Subaru and Toyota anticipate all the modification NERDS like us coming out to play that they put in a clutch plate and flywheel (well debatable on the flywheel bit) that it won't slip - AT ALL? Or is there something that some of us are leaving out of our forum postings?

So what I'm saying is if I go out and buy an FR-S today and put modifications on the car that will put 300+ whp that I will not need to change out the clutch, no slippage? That and the brakes are ok for at least, and I will put a number to this, 300whp to 400whp without needing upgrades?

And please for some of you remember, this is not a rant. Far from it, I just find that this car is a great accomplishment for both companies, Subaru and Toyota. For my daily driver I have always leaned toward getting an WRX, not STI, when I lived in Reno for you need AWD during the winter months. And then after my father got sick and I moved back to Bakersfield to help-out a Honda Civic SI, which I would have left totally OEM - well maybe a Cold Air Intake that's about it. But there is just something about the FR-S/BRZ that makes me want to throw down since there is so much out there to modify this car with. The same is true with the Honda, but I don't want to be part of the Fast and Furious Crowd if you know what I mean. Besides I'm about to close a deal on trading in my old 2008 Toyota Prius for my business and trading it in on a 2014 Toyota PriusC. Trust me, there is something addictive about just throwing in one dollar of gas and being able to get 15 miles, or a little more, worth of driving out of it.

What are your thoughts?

TIM "TREE" G From the LBC!

[swift996]

Clutch is adequate, can hold about +80-90ft lb of torque

Brakes work on the street but even on stock power won't hold up on a track.

The PDK like many automatic variants has limitations with power.

[rusty959]

From what ive seen, people do sometimes run 300whp on stock clutch sometimes, but its pretty much under the assumption that it is going to go out eventually. But yes, its nice that there is some headroom there. Depends hugely on how you drive it. If you run sticky tires and then go around dropping the clutch and hard shifting everywhere, expect it to go sooner than later.

[CSG Mike]

Clutches are rated in torque capacity, not power. A clutch doesn't care how many times per minute you're rotating; it's rotating too. We have a relatively low torque car with a relatively high revving engine, and we share (sort of) clutch components with a WRX. Doesn't surprise me.

The Brakes are also parts bin, and also don't hold up to heavy track duty. It's fine for beginner and intermediate level drivers, but more experienced drivers will save money by getting a BBK.

The car, IMO, is underengineered, and is designed to use a lot of parts bin cars. The chassis is the only really outstanding feature of the car.

[OrbitalEllipses]

The brakes are from a car that weighs 500lbs more. What you call over-engineered is just "parts-bingineered" and yes I just made up that term. Yes it's an awesome term, you're welcome.

[Xdragonxb0i]

The clutch is rated to about 300 Torque. I believe we have the ultimate tuner car ever made. So much potential for Power and one of the best handling cars.

I know what you mean by the Prius. It was my 2nd option. (its so practical). It pains me everytime i get passed by a Prius on the highway, while im trying to squeeze 35mpg @70mph.

[Pete156]

Originally Posted by LBC Por Siempre

How much "OVER" engineered is this car?
So what I'm saying is if I go out and buy an FR-S today and put modifications on the car that will put 300+ whp that I will not need to change out the clutch, no slippage? That and the brakes are ok for at least, and I will put a number to this, 300whp to 400whp without needing upgrades?

What are your thoughts?

TIM "TREE" G From the LBC!

It's not over-engineered.
You WILL need to upgrade the brakes and clutch. The clutch will slip within a week with that type of power (will only handle 260 Tq). The rotors are soft, very soft. If you run them hard, just look at them. Under-engineered if anything. These are my thoughts.

[jamesm]

My clutch started to go over a month with about 220lbft of torque.

[Scenic Driver]

Originally Posted by LBC Por Siempre

Trust me, there is something addictive about just throwing in one dollar of gas and being able to get 15 miles, or a little more, worth of driving out of it.

What are your thoughts?

I could never get addicted to driving a prius no matter what the mileage is.

[rusty959]

We are obviously going to run into a difference of opinion on what "over-engineered" means here. Obviously a lot of stock components aren't going to hold up when you start pushing a track duty car.
But to us normal folks, if I can add 30-50% torque and still have the clutch hold for a significant period of time (Assuming I don't thrash it) I can see how it could be called over engineered.
Similar with the brakes. If I can throw on some decent summer tires and have the brakes not fade badly slowing down from pretty high speeds once in a while, I can see how it could be called over-engineered. That doesn't mean they will hold up to repeated 120 to 60 mph stints on a track.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rusty959

We are obviously going to run into a difference of opinion on what "over-engineered" means here. Obviously a lot of stock components aren't going to hold up when you start pushing a track duty car.
But to us normal folks, if I can add 30-50% torque and still have the clutch hold for a significant period of time (Assuming I don't thrash it) I can see how it could be called over engineered.
Similar with the brakes. If I can throw on some decent summer tires and have the brakes not fade badly slowing down from pretty high speeds once in a while, I can see how it could be called over-engineered. That doesn't mean they will hold up to repeated 120 to 60 mph stints on a track.

Torque is either held or not held. It doesn't matter how it's driven. Instantaneous engine output (work/torque) is not affected by whether you're putzing around down doing a 2nd gear pull, or if you're racing on track.

Bad technique, however, can dramatically shorten a clutch's life.

[LBC Por Siempre]

OK so then just like with the 370Z Car you would want to upgrade the brakes and fluid before going around the track.

I've been reading too many of these build threads and the brakes and the clutch seem to be one of the absolute last things the owners touch.

But what is the first question most folks ask on here when it comes to tuning up your car and how much power or whatever you want...? What are your objectives? You going to race your car, Time Trials, Track Days etc?!

You can put 500whp through the drive train and keep the brakes stock so as long as your not a nut, like I said before - sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. But would you seriously do that right? Spend all the money to make a car that can make that much thrust without addressing the ability to stop?

What I want to know is what are the practical numbers, horse power and torque that you can push through the car before updating Brakes, Clutch, Coil-Overs etc?

After all some of you said Subaru went to the WRX bin for some of their stuff and at just 200 Crank Horsies, there is plenty to play with.

[SkAsphalt]

Originally Posted by LBC Por Siempre

OK so then just like with the 370Z Car you would want to upgrade the brakes and fluid before going around the track.

I've been reading too many of these build threads and the brakes and the clutch seem to be one of the absolute last things the owners touch.

But what is the first question most folks ask on here when it comes to tuning up your car and how much power or whatever you want...? What are your objectives? You going to race your car, Time Trials, Track Days etc?!

You can put 500whp through the drive train and keep the brakes stock so as long as your not a nut, like I said before - sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. But would you seriously do that right? Spend all the money to make a car that can make that much thrust without addressing the ability to stop?

What I want to know is what are the practical numbers, horse power and torque that you can push through the car before updating Brakes, Clutch, Coil-Overs etc?

After all some of you said Subaru went to the WRX bin for some of their stuff and at just 200 Crank Horsies, there is plenty to play with.

This question is destined to fail. You could go all FMB turbo on this, getting 700hp and stick with stock suspension and brakes. You will die or need a super long time to slow down once you tap all of those ponies but you wouldn't have to touch those two primary components...Also, do not turn under any sort of power....

I upgraded my suspension, brakes and engine already...clutch will happen when it happens. Every car needs to be built to suit the drivers application. 200 hp with the goal of the best track time is going to require a lot of brake and suspension work, not to mention weight reduction, stiffening, good tires, etc.

CSG Mike usually always asks people "What do you want to do with your car" You have to answer that question before you can answer your own.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by LBC Por Siempre

OK so then just like with the 370Z Car you would want to upgrade the brakes and fluid before going around the track.

I've been reading too many of these build threads and the brakes and the clutch seem to be one of the absolute last things the owners touch.

But what is the first question most folks ask on here when it comes to tuning up your car and how much power or whatever you want...? What are your objectives? You going to race your car, Time Trials, Track Days etc?!

You can put 500whp through the drive train and keep the brakes stock so as long as your not a nut, like I said before - sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. But would you seriously do that right? Spend all the money to make a car that can make that much thrust without addressing the ability to stop?

What I want to know is what are the practical numbers, horse power and torque that you can push through the car before updating Brakes, Clutch, Coil-Overs etc?

After all some of you said Subaru went to the WRX bin for some of their stuff and at just 200 Crank Horsies, there is plenty to play with.

A 370z will just limp without an oil cooler on track. You don't even need to be fast, just sit at high RPM. This goes for the M3, and IS-F too...

There aren't any practical numbers because everyone's goals and uses are different. Otherwise, Porsche would be ceramic brakes on every turbo...


What would I do?

- Engine oil cooler
- Suspension
- Rims
- Brakes
- Forced Induction
- Headers
- Front pipe
- Tune

Hmm... that sounds like something CSG would build...