Stock Endlinks OK for Tracking?

[Pokeguyjai]

Hi Guys,

*noob warning*

I was checking out the Perrin Polyurethane end links and I noticed in the description that they said something about the stock end links having a flaw.

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I quote from Perrins website:

"Subaru's rear suspension has a flaw. Under certain driving conditions your endlinks can change position and flip under your control arms. This causes major damage to the suspension and of course the endlinks. I highly recommend installing sway bars, stout mounts and endlinks all at the same time"

http://perrinperformance.com/i-14754...-fr-s-brz.html
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My current setup is 18x9.5s /w 245/35/18s. Stock suspension with Racecomp yellows. The mechanic that did work on my car said my wheels were too big for my suspension.

I'm planning to track this setup next month. I was wondering if the end links are at jeopardy with with my meatier tires?

(I do plan on getting coil overs, sway bars, and end links but I my schedule is tight from work and will probably do that when I revisit EFI for an open source retune in a few months...)

Thank you in advance!

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by Pokeguyjai

Hi Guys,

*noob warning*

I was checking out the Perrin Polyurethane end links and I noticed in the description that they said something about the stock end links having a flaw.

=======
I quote from Perrins website:

"Subaru's rear suspension has a flaw. Under certain driving conditions your endlinks can change position and flip under your control arms. This causes major damage to the suspension and of course the endlinks. I highly recommend installing sway bars, stout mounts and endlinks all at the same time"

http://perrinperformance.com/i-14754...-fr-s-brz.html
=======

My current setup is 18x9.5s /w 245/35/18s. Stock suspension with Racecomp yellows. The mechanic that did work on my car said my wheels were too big for my suspension.

I'm planning to track this setup next month. I was wondering if the end links are at jeopardy with with my meatier tires?

(I do plan on getting coil overs, sway bars, and end links but I my schedule is tight from work and will probably do that when I revisit EFI for an open source retune in a few months...)

Thank you in advance!

We have put 30k miles on our BRZ going to nearly every single track day every weekend in the past year and hold most of the FRS/BRZ street tire (and perhaps R-comp) records with very minimal modifications. I think you will be fine.

[ATL BRZ]

Tracked mine several times with RCE springs and sways and stock endlinks with 235/35/18 grippy street tires; no issues.

[Dezoris]

The main reason to swap endlinks is to eliminate pre-load. The stock endlinks are not adjustable. So if you are lowering the car you are creating more pre-load on the bar.

The real world effects of this for most people are minimal but will cause more wear on the bushing of the endlinks.

For track guys, the truth is it can effect handling but with so much slop in the suspension as it stands its not as noticable there either. If you were setting up a hardened track car I would have adjustable endlinks front and rear to do a proper setup.

[Pokeguyjai]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.

I do plan on changing out the bushings when I change out the end links, sway bars, and stock dampers (obviously) so I am not worried about them wearing out.

Change of plans though, probably going to go with Koni dampers instead of coil overs. My friend who is guiding me with my modifications told me that coil overs are probably too advanced for my needs.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Pokeguyjai

Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.

I do plan on changing out the bushings when I change out the end links, sway bars, and stock dampers (obviously) so I am not worried about them wearing out.

Change of plans though, probably going to go with Koni dampers instead of coil overs. My friend who is guiding me with my modifications told me that coil overs are probably too advanced for my needs.

Setting up an adjustable suspension properly is a time sink and very few people spend the time to do it right.

[Pokeguyjai]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Setting up an adjustable suspension properly is a time sink and very few people spend the time to do it right.

I am pretty OCD about things being set up properly so it is probably for the best that I go with a "one size fits all" kind of deal via the dampers.

Next hurdle.. sway bars and what gauge to go with... *rips hair out* Luckily I have at least a month or two to research and decide.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by Pokeguyjai

I am pretty OCD about things being set up properly so it is probably for the best that I go with a "one size fits all" kind of deal via the dampers.

Next hurdle.. sway bars and what gauge to go with... *rips hair out* Luckily I have at least a month or two to research and decide.

What is your intended goal? Sway bars are a fine tuning item. They may reduce roll, but it ultimately makes small differences compared to other items.

[Pokeguyjai]

Originally Posted by CSG David

What is your intended goal? Sway bars are a fine tuning item. They may reduce roll, but it ultimately makes small differences compared to other items.

<---- but with a smiley face!!

My BRZ is my weekend car / occasional track car when I can do track days. I hope to be able to do at least 3 and hopefully 5 or 6 track days next year.

I just want improved handling, I don't mind a little over steer but want to avoid under steer. (I think that makes sense?) I'm sure we all want "improved handling" so I guess that might be a little too general. I don't plan on turning this into a drift car or a drag car. Just want as much nimbleness as I can get out of her without sacrificing stability.

I plan on doing at least one track day with the stock sway bars / end links before I decide so I actually have a good idea of the cornering characteristics of the BRZ which I wouldn't be able to feel out on the street.

My main question regarding this is which gauge of sway bar and also what combination for the front and rear. I currently am thinking the 19 front / 16 rears from Perrin. With Kartboy end links. But I would be open to Whiteline sway bars as well.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by Pokeguyjai

<---- but with a smiley face!!

My BRZ is my weekend car / occasional track car when I can do track days. I hope to be able to do at least 3 and hopefully 5 or 6 track days next year.

I just want improved handling, I don't mind a little over steer but want to avoid under steer. (I think that makes sense?) I guess we all want that but I don't plan on turning this into a drift car or a drag car. Just want as much nimbleness as I can get out of her without sacrificing stability.

I plan on doing at least one track day with the stock sway bars / end links before I decide so I actually have a good idea of the cornering characteristics of the BRZ which I wouldn't be able to feel out on the street.

This can turn into a long convo. I'll PM you.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

The main reason to swap endlinks is to eliminate pre-load. The stock endlinks are not adjustable. So if you are lowering the car you are creating more pre-load on the bar.

Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand how lowering the vehicle could pre-load the bar.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand how lowering the vehicle could pre-load the bar.

Basically lowering the suspension or bringing lower control arms upward toward the frame simulate a loaded ARB because the links are a fixed length designed for stock height.

Moving the control arms up load the bar. This can effect corner balancing and track setups/shock setup. Ideally you want to change the end links to threaded units to be able to set the bar to neutral. So the bar is not pre-loaded.

[Captain Snooze]

Nope, I still don't get it. I thought arb only have an effect when they are being twisted. When both side are moving up or down in unison there is no effect. I appreciate that altering the end link lengths changes the geometry but I don't see how this "pre-loads" the arb. That is, if one loosens the end links on one side the arb doesn't spring back into a different position; the sway bar is not storing any energy.

[wparsons]

^^ This.

There's no pre-load on the sway bars, if both wheels are moving up and down together the bar adds almost zero resistance (other than any resistance in the bushing). If you don't believe it, disconnect the end links and see how easy it is to rotate the bar.

The bigger reason for shorter end links (especially up front) is that the stock ones can end up binding when lowered too much.

There is something to be said about shortening the links so that the bar is in the same position as stock to keep the geometry closer to stock, but it's not going to harm the bar to not get adjustable links.