I'm wondering about ETC.

[Asterisked Accolade]

Or Electronic Throttle Control, drive-by-wire. I've seen that newer car have this and i'm wondering the pros and cons to the car enthusiast. Does it take away more control of the car from the driver? I foresee a situation such as pulling the fuse to the TCS for a trackday or something and the car denying you the ability to use the gas pedal. Anyways, what can you tell of the pros, cons and personal opinions?

[dsmx17]

I hate drive by wire personally, almost every car ive driven (without a flash) has a noticable delay, I would compare to turbo lag for a new turbo driver.

[M-17]

Don't know much but this is from wikipedia and more can read there if that helps.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_throttle_control"]Electronic throttle control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The benefits of ETC are largely unnoticed by most drivers because the aim is to make the vehicle power-train characteristics seamlessly consistent irrespective of prevailing conditions, such as engine temperature, altitude, accessory loads etc. The ETC is also working 'behind the scenes' to dramatically improve the ease with which the driver can execute gear changes and deal with the dramatic torque changes associated with rapid accelerations and decelerations.
ETC facilitates the integration of features such as cruise control, traction control, stability control, and precrash systems and others that require torque management, since the throttle can be moved irrespective of the position of the driver's accelerator pedal. ETC provides some benefit in areas such as air-fuel ratio control, exhaust emissions and fuel consumption reduction, and also works in concert with other technologies such as gasoline direct injection.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire"]Drive by wire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Advantages

Safety can be improved by providing computer controlled intervention of vehicle controls with systems such as Electronic Stability Control (ESC), adaptive cruise control and Lane Assist Systems.
Ergonomics can be improved by the amount of force and range of movement required by the driver and by greater flexibility in the location of controls. This flexibility also significantly expands the number of options for the vehicle's design.
Parking can be made easier with reduced lock-to-lock steering wheel travel as with BMW's Active Steering System, or semi-automatic which is available in Ford/Lincoln vehicles in the US, some Toyota Prius in Japan, Lexus LS460 models worldwide and newer European Volkswagen models. Although neither of these are strictly Steer-by-Wire (SbW) because they retain mechanical linkages, they show the capabilities that are possible.

Disadvantages

The cost of DbW systems is often greater than conventional systems. The extra costs stem from greater complexity, development costs and the redundant elements needed to make the system safe. Failures in the control system could theoretically cause a runaway vehicle, although this is no different from the throttle return spring snapping on a traditional mechanical throttle vehicle. The vehicle could still be stopped by turning the ignition off if this occurred. Another disadvantage is that manufacturers often reduce throttle sensitivity in the low-mid throttle range to make the car easier or safer to control - or to protect the drivetrain (gearbox, clutch, etc.) from driver abuse. The feeling to the driver is that the throttle feels less responsive. There are aftermarket electronic kits to increase throttle sensitivity, to re-gain a more direct-feeling relationship between pedal position and throttle valve opening.

[bestwheelbase]

One thing I dislike are switchable modes that tweak throttle curve. "Sport mode" just boosts values in the middle of the pedal's range of motion which makes the throttle more touchy. You lose resolution by doing this. And for most people who drive around in standard mode all the time, this serves only to make the car react differently than they anticipate. Which can have negative results for not just the driver but also those around them.

Sometimes less is more.

[Asterisked Accolade]

To me it sounds like, 'If you can avoid getting a car with it, do.'

[Rich@ViscontiTuning]

Originally Posted by dsmx17

I hate drive by wire personally, almost every car ive driven (without a flash) has a noticable delay, I would compare to turbo lag for a new turbo driver.

Good analogy. And I've got a mixed opinion on this too. DBW, like everything else happening in the car industry lately, is controlled with a computer and algorithm. The end result in most cases is an electronic system is taking over what used to be the responsibility of the driver. But to be fair it's also generally creating overall better performance (new M5 comes to mind, google 6spd M5 vs. DST M5 but current gen, Car and Driver compares I believe?). But again, I have mixed feelings about this because I'm a driver through n through. I wanna be "connected" to the car. Perfect example is the 6-spd manual. I'll always prefer rowin' the gears over pushin' paddles, but then you drive and ride in cars like the GT-R with its phenomenal DCT.. and you just have to accept that.. damn it! I'll never be able to shift that fast! lol

However.. you guys do know where I'm going with this next now right (regarding the DBW problem)? Guess what?? Our tune completely takes care of this lag, providing what feels like a more direct connection to the throttle. This is a good example of one of the positive advantages of everything seemingly being takin over by computers; at least we have the ability to easily make tweaks right??

Just another good reason to check out our tune. I'm willing to bet it takes care of all the little gripes you have with the stock performance of your car (which I'm assuming it must be).

[Asterisked Accolade]

Originally Posted by Rich@ViscontiTuning

Good analogy. And I've got a mixed opinion on this too. DBW, like everything else happening in the car industry lately, is controlled with a computer and algorithm. The end result in most cases is an electronic system is taking over what used to be the responsibility of the driver. But to be fair it's also generally creating overall better performance (new M5 comes to mind, google 6spd M5 vs. DST M5 but current gen, Car and Driver compares I believe?). But again, I have mixed feelings about this because I'm a driver through n through. I wanna be "connected" to the car. Perfect example is the 6-spd manual. I'll always prefer rowin' the gears over pushin' paddles, but then you drive and ride in cars like the GT-R with its phenomenal DCT.. and you just have to accept that.. damn it! I'll never be able to shift that fast! lol

However.. you guys do know where I'm going with this next now right (regarding the DBW problem)? Guess what?? Our tune completely takes care of this lag, providing what feels like a more direct connection to the throttle. This is a good example of one of the positive advantages of everything seemingly being takin over by computers; at least we have the ability to easily make tweaks right??

Just another good reason to check out our tune. I'm willing to bet it takes care of all the little gripes you have with the stock performance of your car (which I'm assuming it must be).

Did you just offer cogent, logical advice, and then slide in a plug for your product? Very unethical behavior, morally reprehensible, even. I'm close to a tantrum. (jk)

From the sound of it, i'd rather stick to old-fashioned cars. I still have my eyes set on a bare-bones 2009 Hyundai Accent Hatchback. *swoon*

[Rich@ViscontiTuning]

Originally Posted by Asterisked Accolade

Did you just offer cogent, logical advice, and then slide in a plug for your product? Very unethical behavior, morally reprehensible, even. I'm close to a tantrum. (jk)

From the sound of it, i'd rather stick to old-fashioned cars. I still have my eyes set on a bare-bones 2009 Hyundai Accent Hatchback. *swoon*

Now what kind of salesman would I be without some shameless plugs here and there

[Chewie4299]

[Rich@ViscontiTuning]

Originally Posted by Chewie4299

Lol! That's hilarious. Ya know I haven't put together my avatar yet. This is a good candidate

[serialk11r]

I don't think it's accurate to say electronically controlled throttles are taking away your connection to the car or making things easier. You can change the "throttle map" on a cable throttle by changing the shape of the intake tract near the throttle body or the shape of the plate itself, and the e-throttle maps are designed to soften response but still try to emulate a throttle body; The torque it gives you at the same pedal position decreases as the engine speed goes up. When I drive my car with its cable throttle, I don't think "gee, my foot directly controls the throttle, the torque the engine gives me is so intuitive!", because the amount of air going through a throttle plate at some position relative to another is not intuitive to the human mind.

The reason it feels like there is less response is because that's how it's programmed. On some cars you can give the throttle a jab and the engine literally does not respond. Safety feature. Doesn't have to be that way, I think BMW M cars have electronically controlled throttle with very good response.

The benefits are hard to see, but having the computer take one input and spit out instructions to the various engine subsystems is much better than having a computer attempt to respond to unpredictable changes in airflow controlled by a valve directly modulated by the driver.

[wlfpck]

Think pedal position and the amount the throttle body is open.

With the standard cable throttle, it is all mechanical. If you graph the pedal position versus the amount the throttle body is open, you'll get a linear curve. For instance, pedal fully down is 100% open. Pedal half down is 50% open. (Could actually be different but that's the simplified idea).

Now if you take drive by wire (dbw) and graph it out, for most cars, you'll get curve that fits better to an exponential curve or some polynomial curve.

The pedal has a position sensor which senses the position of the pedal and coverts that position into a specific voltage which is used to determine how much the throttle is open.

This is why there are multitudes of comapnies (Blitz, etc) that sell these throttle controllers. It is something that is easy enough to make that you could actually go to radioshack and build one yourself. You just need to know your circuits. Either way, these throttle controllers basically goes between the voltage from the position sensor and the input to determine the amount the throttle is open to adjust the voltage as needed. The overall result is a more linear behavior.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by wlfpck

Think pedal position and the amount the throttle body is open.

With the standard cable throttle, it is all mechanical. If you graph the pedal position versus the amount the throttle body is open, you'll get a linear curve. For instance, pedal fully down is 100% open. Pedal half down is 50% open. (Could actually be different but that's the simplified idea).

Now if you take drive by wire (dbw) and graph it out, for most cars, you'll get curve that fits better to an exponential curve or some polynomial curve.

That's not the issue. The question is what does it mean for the throttle to be 50% open? If you say it means the throttle is at a 45 degree angle, what does that tell you? Nothing at all useful.

From my experience, the actual throttle mapping with ethrottles is better for actual driving because you get much more resolution with the softened low end response, whereas the lightest tap of the throttle gives you a huge jolt with cable throttle.

[wlfpck]

I believe 50% open means that the throttle is letting 50% of maximum flow through.

Maybe I was a bit unclear in what I was saying.

http://www.blitzpowerusa.com/product...n/throcon.html

Here is the site to the Blitz website. Not sure if this clears anything up or not.