[abraxis]

Originally Posted by KR-S 86

The LFA was a flagship for the LEXUS brand, by the way. It may have been Toyota's best car regardless of brand, but it was built as a Lexus and has no place being compared to with regards to Toyota brand flagships.

Ultimately neither you nor I will ever know if Toyota could build a Supra by themselves without resorting to contracting another company to build it for them for 50-60K. It's rather idiotic to assume you know better than a car company about pricing (as evidenced by your C8 bashing) and I'm ashamed to have even entertained your asinine arguments to begin with.

And you just proved my point on every level. I was hoping you'd be able to move on, but clearly have issues seeing the non sequiturs of your own arguments and can't even process basic counterarguments which is why I knew it would be a waste of time to even continue. Sadly your incessant blathering of nonsense and ad hominem attacks begs a response.

Lexus is the premium brand of Toyota, hence you can not have a pinnacle product under their roof branded as a Toyota. The Land Cruiser is branded here as a Lexus. Toyota has been very clear many times about the need to keep the two brand separated when you are asking people to spend more than $60k here in the US for a premium/pinnacle product.

Also, if you actually knew anything about Toyota's history, the LFA represents Toyota history before they even made cars by implementing a carbon fiber loom to harken back to the days when Toyota made cotton looms. The idea that you can disassociate Lexus or the LFA from the Toyota brand is a no go. Lexus wasn't even a brand in Japan for along time, and was formulated for marketing purposes in the West where they didn't perceive Toyota as a quality brand. So they literally slapped a new Lexus badge on the same Toyotas they sold in Japan. Now you expect them to throw out their entire corporate strategy of 20 years so you can have a $90k Supra that very few people will be able to afford just to appease your rabid fanboyness of some personal idealization of what a Supra should be. No I don't think so. It is you who doesn't understand what a car company is trying to do and it's your type of thinking that would prevent more people from having economically democratized access to a frankly awesome car like the current Supra.

But I agree, it shouldn't be compared to the Supra because the Supra was never a $90k-$100k flagship for the Toyota brand. You could get the same 2JZ in a Toyota Cressida ffs. And that's the point, the Supra does NOT belong in the discussion of 'pinnacle' 'flagship' supercars. It is not and never was a 'Halo' product. And if people like you want to have the Supra be the 'flagship' halo car for Toyota, these are the considerations you have to deal with. Brand placement, price points, demand, costs, etc. None of which you have considered adequately bringing me to my next point.

You state neither you nor I will ever know if Toyota would be able to produce the Supra by themselves for $50-$60k on their own and that I'm asinine to presume so. Uhhh....no. The presumptive one here is you. I seriously don't know what rock you've been living under to not know Toyota has come out and said explicitly numerous times that making a Toyota Supra in house with a brand new I-6 would push the costs to nearly double in the 90k territory. But that's not good enough for you? YOU are the one that knows better than the car company!! That's hilarious. But hey, feel free to project your own inadequacy on someone else if if makes you feel better trolling a forum with silly statements like raising the price to $90k would NOT prevent any people from buying a Supra. You should look up a price-demand curve from a basic econ course sometime. Oh yeah, and obviously Toyota did their own math and accounting on producing the fictional Supra that exists in your mind and decided it was a no go. But hey, you know better than the actual car company again! As for the C8, GM has acknowledged they will lose about 10-15k on every supposed $60k vette they sell. Maybe you have heard the media management about economies of scale they have been spouting to pull off their production cost magic? Let me explain that to you since you clearly need some assistance. That means they are burying their losses across their entire production lineup because even with economies of scale, GM conceded that the cost to build one C8 is in the $75k zone. Yes, their figures, not mine. And anyone with any basic engineering or automotive manufacturing knowledge would be able to see that in all the C8 cutaways. That clearly isn't you. You would have to sell the C8 in Corolla numbers year after year to break even at $60k. So yeah, clearly Toyota is not interested in producing your fabricated notion of a Supra and take a bath on every one sold to appease whatever pedestal you have put the Supra on. I wouldn't have even brought up the LFA or other Halo/flagship cars in the toyota lineup except that's the argument people are making for the Supra being a flagship product. Wasn't even my argument, lol. I'm arguing against the idea and siding with Toyota here. The idea of the new Supra as a GT car with more power, track performance and creature comforts than an 86 that is priced in a similar price bracket as the original when adjusted for inflation sits perfectly well with me. Especially since it means I can afford one.

To borrow your own quote, "It's rather idiotic to assume you know better than a car company about pricing" (see your posted quote above)

You are absolutely right about yourself. Can't argue with objective facts. Be careful when you point your finger at someone, you'll have 3 more pointed back right at yourself.

Also, your point about the 86 being a standalone car compared to the Supra is also complete nonsense. Both were developed in pretty much the same way, and do equal measure to pay homage to the spirit of their predecessors and what they brought to the table. If anything, the supra is more standalone for the fact it's a coupe and the Z4 is only a convertible. The irony is the 86 and BRZ share more in common in looks and drive more similarly than the supra and Z4 do despite having more parts bin skews to differentiate them. It's just a silly argument for you to make that offers nothing to the conversation.

Which brings us back to the core argument you were making from the beginning that I disagreed with. No matter how you want to spin it, your claim was precisely that if Toyota could NOT make your ideal version of an in house produced Supra, they shouldn't make any Supra at all. Well, again.....this is just crazy talk. The idea that a world without one is better than with one just screams of an irrational emotional response. There's a place for that kind of sentiment, like a forum. But no true sports car enthusiast wants fewer choices and higher prices that restrict their access. If you don't believe me, ask Toyota and GM because they clearly do know better than you and are not asinine. Refer to your own quote above if you have again lost your line of thought.

I tried to give you a soft out by only quoting tcoat on a tangent to let it die, but you decided to play mr. big shot forum troll and try to pile on by getting into a personal attack for the 3rd time. If you want to continue your cognitive dissonance in full public glory, I'm happy to provide any links, graphs, articles, and venn diagrams to further elucidate how ill informed you appear to be. I was just reposting your own quotes originally because I thought that was more than sufficient for a good chuckle without having to crap all over a forum thread. Even that went over your head. Oh well, no good deed....

Long Live Paul Walker!!

(and LOL at your notion that I'm a C8 basher. Cuz I stated it's bigger and heavier than the last two? You're funny when simple facts turn you into such a passionate hater. I'd be happy to make you a list of issues I have with every car so you could implode. You must have selectively erased memory of my critiques of the Supra and 86 for some reason. Hmmm... I'd be happy to take both the C8 and Supra but for different reasons and utility. They don't really play in the same field or compete with each other for my desires. They do for others somehow, that's their business. I wouldn't pay more than $45k for a Supra and no new C8 will cost that. Supra is a better daily driver in realistic traffic and store hauler with canyon carving and straight line ability, C8 is outright track level performance playing in the 160-210mph range that can do GT duties and non aggressive daily use if you have a big ass parking spot and little traffic during commutes. Sadly my C8 money has been shifted to the Cybertruck atm. Go big or go home. )