[mav1178]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

But somehow you're making definite conclusions already.?

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Certification costs millions. The sales numbers in Europe just don't justify that.

One only needs to go back 20 years to see numbers that justify everything @Tcoat has said: Nissan S13/14/15 WW sales numbers.

I have this constant, running debate with 240SX owners on Facebook/Zilvia/etc, and everyone somehow thinks the world revolves around their idea of what sells. Instead, I throw hard numbers back at them so they can see what the market was willing to support at that time.

Here's quoted text from a post I made about SR20DET engine availability and why it wasn't exported out of Europe vs sourcing primarily from Japan:

https://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread....1-Did-you-know

There was 5772 S14s TOTAL sold in the UK.

I think all of Europe there was less than 10k S14s sold in total. Let's be generous and say there were 40k S13s sold in Europe total...

By comparison, you have these numbers out of Japan:

180SX total: 74925
S13 Silvia total: 302761
S14 Silvia total: 81076
S15 Silvia total: 38741

Total 240SX sold in the US was around ~251k units across 9 model years.

Keep in mind that used car pricing also drives sales of motors (as a part out). When cars are cheap and not worth much on the resale market, parts become a more lucrative market for junkyards and car lots. Cars in Japan were dirt cheap, when I went to Japan in 2005 and even 2008 I was seeing modified S13s and S14s easily under $5k, and there was no export market for the cars back then because it was illegal to import even into Canada.

So that's why there's no motors out of Europe, at least no one cares to export them out of Europe. No money to be made...

The caveat with the above numbers is that only about 20% of the total cars sold actually had turbo engines (example, ~23k of the 100k total PS13 2WS Silvia made was with SR20DET). Even on that basis alone, for a cheap, entry-level econobox sports car there is very little incentive for manufacturers to do more than what's needed to hit the product placement/spec/MSRP/sales targets.

The same with the Volvo V60 and other groups that I'm on. Those groups have an entirely different discussion, primarily revolving around the general market shift to crossovers/SUVs. One of the stats posted was a bizzare ~70% of all vehicles sold being some type of truck/SUV/crossover.

Needless to say, the general car buying trend is completely opposite of owning a car like the 86/BRZ.

Originally Posted by HuntingtonFRS

This whole thread is stupid as nobody has any data, but knows everything about the topic. Sounds like uncles arguing on Facebook.

See above.

I don't have hard data for the ZC6/ZN6 sales in all territories but someone will make it for us as time passes...

Originally Posted by Red-86

I’m surprised they even sell the 2.0 Supra in North America. Here in Australia they don’t even offer the 2.0 as it would cost nearly as much as the 3.0 and almost no-one would buy it as a result.

I'm going to guess Toyota/BMW needed to make a certain number of engines due to production constraints with Magna Steyr, so the excess 2.0L engine had to be offered somewhere to make it work for other territories.

Originally Posted by Red-86

For comparison I think they sold around 20,000 twins in Australia between 2013-2018, or around 3,300 a year (given the AU population is just 26M vs the 500M in the EU, that shows how each market reacted to the twins).

To put that in perspective, if the twins had sold at the AU per capita rate in the EU they would have sold around 64,000 a year in the EU. That would have gotten Toyobaru’s attention for sure!

1999-2002 Nissan S15 Silvia/200SX

https://gtr-registry.com/en-s15-silvia-200sx.php

43.1k total sold WW
3879 sold in Australia (less than 10% of total)
477 sold in NZ (about 1% of total)

In Australia/NZ they only offered the SR20DET, DE was not offered. Even with this emphasis on the turbo engine, the S15 Silvia had about 50% of cars sold with DET and 50% with DE.

Fundamentally we can compare this car to other sports cars, but there are simply not many that are sold worldwide in different territories. We can compare the car to a Mustang GT 2.0L but there's no Mustang GT sold in Japan nor Europe in any meaningful numbers.

Only real data points to compare are Miata, and other RWD sports cars from the 1990s, of which the most high profile one is the S13/14/15 chassis. If the sales numbers are anywhere close to what the S13/14 achieved at its peak, then I'm sure 2 engine offerings is easy to do. But as it stands, the platform is lucky to hit 100k annual sales worldwide.