[brewksy]

Gotta get some common sense in here...

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

How so the FRS/BRZ isn't a let them from the turbo4 crowd? Which is in fact the biggest crowd/market of them all. The 08' vs 10/11' WRX? Low power and tamed grandma look.. The standard FRS/BRZ is right up that alley.

Subjective opinion, without even having driven the car. We'll come back to this, because you state later that people that have driven the car and have good things to say are part of some secret Toyota conspiracy, but someone that hasn't driven the car (yourself) has the real truth about what the car is and isn't. What's more likely? That there's an international conspiracy of magazine road test editors and collusion with the auto industry, or you're just out to lunch?

Reviews by the way are being really nice about the car in general are hand picked by Toyota. Take it to an unbiased reviewer and you get as many or more cons and there is pros. Also total of 150 active members across a couple of forums of which half will only be buying the car doesn't take account for the other 9000+ cars that need to be sold. What do the other 9000 possible owners want? Toyota didn't care.

Nice market research. You checked an online car forum to find out what the demand for the car will be and how many will be sold? Sorry, but that's not research and it's also not indicative at all of the actual demand for this car. Your continued lambasting of Toyota is more biased than any article anyone could have written praising Toyota.

This car is a let down in the present and future market, Toyota wanted to build it for themselves like the LFA not for the consumer, this is made clear in all their releases. If this was a Subaru only or better yet Enthusiast built car, we'd have our cake and be able to eat it too while still pleasing the tree huggers.

Every release and interview with engineers or development primaries for the vehicle have stated the same thing: a return to the roots of driving, what the customer wanted. Again, your argument is completely wrong and devoid of any actual research. If/then conjecture doesn't prove anything either.

The only success this car will have is not because of Toyota's involvement but the fact us gear heads can sling a Subaru turbo mill into it no problem from any future Subaru performance model, that is if you don't buy the STi. And the success will be brought by the Subaru tuners/shops and aftermarket not from Toyota's camp, Toyota guys will be able to play because of this. I'm not too thrill because the Toyota/Scion coming to the Subaru crowd is only a recipe for disaster, 2 different crowds with way different ideas.

Again, another subjective opinion about how successful this car will be so we'll ignore this one completely.

Subaru is known for early cycle refreshes, because we the buyers stick to our guns and don't buy it. They listen to the majority and fold. Toyota wont cater to the masses but Subaru is going to, I already know this.

Honda just did the same thing with the Civic. And of course "you already know this" - your entire argument to this point has just been some half-brained ideas you cooked up and are now serving as some truth. Let's ignore this paragraph as well.

Anyways the WRX change was huuuuuuge, owners felt like driving their 08's thru the dealer window on fire. 15+% stiffer suspension changing a few parts, black housing headlights, wheels, sti grill, standard aero lip package, bigger turbo(not just a retune), wheels and tires all standard. The car was worth the $500 difference. In terms of Autocross/Track classing the 09' was well ahead of the 08' in every single aspect, If I owned an 08' I would of crash/rolled it, to cash in on my GAP insurance and accident forgiveness. LOL Never did something like that but I would of been very tempted.

More lame arguments and hyperbole. The '08 WRX is still a capable car and the mid-cycle refresh wasn't as dramatic as you would claim here. In fact, many people still actually enjoy their '08 WRXs.

Really?? N/A matches the character of the car? Says who Toyota? Well great Toyota's "character" doesn't match the current market trend and the sports car world to be exact. LOL Btw WTF does the Camry have anything to do with a sports car/coupe? Nothing stop trolling.

N/A matches the character of the car because N/A is known to have more direct feedback when it comes to throttle control. Don't you know that? And this character doesn't match the current market trend? Which trend is that? The one that says all 4-cylinder engines have to be turbo'd to be fun? I think the S2K, Miata, and Lotus Elise/Exige would disagree (oddly enough, those three cars are also considered to be some of the most well-connected cars on the road today).

I can't say really about them but EVO probably went with the flow or it's too early to judge, once it released or a comparable car comes out, they'll probably sing a different tune.. it's done all the time.

So when you get called out on your argument, instead of looking at your own biased views your explanation is that EVO magazine is just "going with the flow" and a whole bunch of magazines will change their mind later after it comes out. Here comes that international auto mag conspiracy talk again...

My personal specs really? Again stop trolling. I'm not the only one with this thought, Subaru is even saying this about the specs along with the majority of the forums. I didn't say they bought the media rather chose friendly ones.

Subaru is saying what, exactly? They haven't said anything officially that agrees with what you're saying. I'd love to know what sources you have for this that doesn't include the international auto magazine/Toyota conspirators. "Chose" friendly ones? Like every big mag/auto site in the world?

Toyota forces their goals on the consumer and are bean counters. Subaru listens to the customers because they care and want to build what they and we want.

More blind speculation. Let's ignore this paragraph as well.

Uh, Toyota gave input for 08' WRX styling, trying to Corolla-size the WRX, 09' they tried to gain favor with the refresh but then also shot their current base in the foot, so for 2011 Subaru said we're doing this our way bringing back the wide flares and stopped caring about the Toyobean counters. Now they make the choice to separate the Impreza from WRX to satisfy the bean counters, because they can't bear to put their follower thru it again. It is because of Toyota along with FHI decisions the refreshes had to be done to the WRX.

No. If Toyota was even *allowed* to give advice on the WRX styling it would be considered collusion in the market because Toyota is not a majority shareholder of Subaru (Subaru is not a sub-brand of Toyota). Your arguments here are basically just an active imagination gone wild. FHI controls Subaru outright - Toyota has no ability to modify Subaru's lineup in any way. I could own 30% of a company, but if I'm not the CEO in charge I don't have any input into the direction of the organization and less than zero input on the actual design elements in the engineering department. This is not my opinion, this is how business works.

Originally Posted by Gadfly

Must be a Honda track club...

I am a dedicated "track guy", Hell I am a member at two tracks. I, as well as every other person I know is disappointed they did not make a high performance version of the car.

The only time 200hp is "plenty", is if it is bolted into a bike.

Lets not forget this car is tiny, not really that light, is pretty bare boned, and is still 25k starting.... This is just as much as an AWD, turbo charged and larger WRX. Different cars; yes, but the WRX costs a lot more to make…

Frankly, the value is just not there. The GT86/BRZ should be cheaper than it is considering what you get. For 25k, we really should be getting the turbo motor, and perhaps for 20k for the secretary version (N/A).

You might be perfectly happy with the car just how it is, which is fine, but you are the minority. The vast majority of this car's target market are more turners than purists, and given the choice most would opt for the higher power motor.

Your friends are not the majority either. I see you own a GTR a Vette, and various other higher-powered cars. I imagine the people you hang around with also have similar cars? This car was never targeted at you - even the interview with some of the head developers stated that turbos, high grip, and high power were definitely NOT the goals of this car, something the GTR, the Vette, the Supra, and the GTO have in spades (in varying capacities). Is it surprising that you don't find 200hp to be adequate in this case?

Second, please don't make speculation around the production cost of the car, or whether a minority of people want the N/A version, or the market for this car. Unless you're an engineer at Toyota and know the R&D costs or the lead marketing exec that is responsible for hitting the "right" target market for this car, there's no way for you to predict that. With the positive attention it's received already, it's hard to swallow that somehow we're in the "minority" for wanting this car.