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86racer · 05-01-2013, 12:45 AM

So I am neither an expert on racing or the physics of accidents, but...

1) I wish we would not flame each other, and instead work towards finding the facts so that we can make safe choices in modifying our cars

2) I have reviewed many sites on this subject, and the messages seem pretty consistent: There seem to be two "safe" choices for cars that will be used for both street and track:
A) A totally stock vehicle (from a belt/seat/airbag standpoint) plus a good helmet (SA2010) for events, OR
B) A firmly installed half cage in coupes (or a sturdy roll bar higher than driver's head in convertible, though it seems unlikely to be as safe as a coupe) well clear of the driver's head, plus helmet, plus racing seat with fixed back, plus 5-6 point harness properly tensioned and attached to cage, plus hans all used together for events, but with just the half cage and stock seat/belt for street.

I realize that, while stock safety devices are extensively tested and regulated, aftermarket devices seem to run the gamut from totally unsafe to much safer than stock, and that the aftermarket systems are just that, systems that need to be used together. While a full cage is what is called for in wheel to wheel racing, it seems compelling that the risks to our skulls are high when not restrained by harnesses and helmeted. Many of us are mostly interested in DE and cannot/will not be trailering our cars to tracks, thus my/our interest in alternatives to the full setup.

Fatoni states: "this whole last page has been about how i dont have any data. were talking about peoples lives here so we cant exactly perform prospective trials. all we have is what has already happened but we cant isolate any variables in a world we cant control."

I understand where this statement comes from, but it is incorrect. The IIHS does and shares crash test dummy tests that we can learn from. While I personally have ruled out "racing" any convertibles, I still found it useful to view this clip, because it is easier see what is going on inside:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/v...01/6513160001/
From this, I can say that in none of the tests they perform does the driver's head get anywhere near the back of the car (or behind the head rest, for that matter). While this test lacks rollover tests, there are other rollover videos of both live and test dummies, including this one;
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6h7wqLqJ0U&NR=1&feature=endscreen"]Rollover test 3 cabrio - Test ανατροπής τριών cabrio - ADAC - YouTube[/ame]
See 1:03 for why I am so concerned with rollover in convertibles, even with roll bars. I understand that it is not uncommon for heads to hit the roof in coupes, but that's got to be better than hitting cement. Further, I am considering a CG Lock for any spirited drive to keep me lower. But also notice that the heads do not swing wildly to the rear of the car (predictable, given the direction of forces), thus bolstering the stance that a rear cage that is well clear of the seated and restrained head is not going to be hit by the head.

Some have asserted that the problem with any fixed seat in the absence of a full cage is that the roof could collapse in a rollover and leave your head as the highest point. I have even seen assertions that the stock seats are "designed to collapse." My conclusion so far is that stock seats are NOT designed to collapse (I have seen no reputable reports to that effect, nor videos of them collapsing). I also conclude that coupes are safer than convertibles in this regard, as are newer cars vs. older cars, and that a rear/half cage is likely less effective than a full cage, but likely still better than no cage at all -- and since I am considering mixed usage cars in which full cages should be avoided, it seems clear to me that a half cage in a newer car is likely the best solution.

I bet there are differences in stock rollover protection for various cars, but I have so far been unable to source those ratings.

Consumer Reports weighed in on Rollovers:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...-101/index.htm
From this I infer that newer cars are becoming more crush-proof, but I was also dismayed to confirm that "Safety belts are not required to hold occupants in place during a rollover. As cars roll, occupants are pulled out of their seats and toward the roof. Most safety belts in use today won't stop that," thus my interest in CG Lock or full Harnesses. Of note, the IIHS Rollover test is not dynamic, but instead loads the roof with weight:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IwOwog3skk"]Tiguan Rollover Crash Test - YouTube[/ame]
Another site with advice on avoiding rollovers:
http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/Rollover/Causes

Oh, and on the subject of race seats, I am convinced a Halo seat offers superior protection for the helmeted and harnessed person, especially for side impacts and rollovers, but would be wary of using it on the street:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...at-Halo-or-not

That's it for now.

for reading, and for any constructive comments on this subject.

05-01-2013, 12:45 AM	#63
86racer Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Drives: S2k,F430 Location: LA Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Half Cages in Mixed Use Cars So I am neither an expert on racing or the physics of accidents, but... 1) I wish we would not flame each other, and instead work towards finding the facts so that we can make safe choices in modifying our cars 2) I have reviewed many sites on this subject, and the messages seem pretty consistent: There seem to be two "safe" choices for cars that will be used for both street and track: A) A totally stock vehicle (from a belt/seat/airbag standpoint) plus a good helmet (SA2010) for events, OR B) A firmly installed half cage in coupes (or a sturdy roll bar higher than driver's head in convertible, though it seems unlikely to be as safe as a coupe) well clear of the driver's head, plus helmet, plus racing seat with fixed back, plus 5-6 point harness properly tensioned and attached to cage, plus hans all used together for events, but with just the half cage and stock seat/belt for street. I realize that, while stock safety devices are extensively tested and regulated, aftermarket devices seem to run the gamut from totally unsafe to much safer than stock, and that the aftermarket systems are just that, systems that need to be used together. While a full cage is what is called for in wheel to wheel racing, it seems compelling that the risks to our skulls are high when not restrained by harnesses and helmeted. Many of us are mostly interested in DE and cannot/will not be trailering our cars to tracks, thus my/our interest in alternatives to the full setup. Fatoni states: "this whole last page has been about how i dont have any data. were talking about peoples lives here so we cant exactly perform prospective trials. all we have is what has already happened but we cant isolate any variables in a world we cant control." I understand where this statement comes from, but it is incorrect. The IIHS does and shares crash test dummy tests that we can learn from. While I personally have ruled out "racing" any convertibles, I still found it useful to view this clip, because it is easier see what is going on inside: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/v...01/6513160001/ From this, I can say that in none of the tests they perform does the driver's head get anywhere near the back of the car (or behind the head rest, for that matter). While this test lacks rollover tests, there are other rollover videos of both live and test dummies, including this one; [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6h7wqLqJ0U&NR=1&feature=endscreen"]Rollover test 3 cabrio - Test ανατροπής τριών cabrio - ADAC - YouTube[/ame] See 1:03 for why I am so concerned with rollover in convertibles, even with roll bars. I understand that it is not uncommon for heads to hit the roof in coupes, but that's got to be better than hitting cement. Further, I am considering a CG Lock for any spirited drive to keep me lower. But also notice that the heads do not swing wildly to the rear of the car (predictable, given the direction of forces), thus bolstering the stance that a rear cage that is well clear of the seated and restrained head is not going to be hit by the head. Some have asserted that the problem with any fixed seat in the absence of a full cage is that the roof could collapse in a rollover and leave your head as the highest point. I have even seen assertions that the stock seats are "designed to collapse." My conclusion so far is that stock seats are NOT designed to collapse (I have seen no reputable reports to that effect, nor videos of them collapsing). I also conclude that coupes are safer than convertibles in this regard, as are newer cars vs. older cars, and that a rear/half cage is likely less effective than a full cage, but likely still better than no cage at all -- and since I am considering mixed usage cars in which full cages should be avoided, it seems clear to me that a half cage in a newer car is likely the best solution. I bet there are differences in stock rollover protection for various cars, but I have so far been unable to source those ratings. Consumer Reports weighed in on Rollovers: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...-101/index.htm From this I infer that newer cars are becoming more crush-proof, but I was also dismayed to confirm that "Safety belts are not required to hold occupants in place during a rollover. As cars roll, occupants are pulled out of their seats and toward the roof. Most safety belts in use today won't stop that," thus my interest in CG Lock or full Harnesses. Of note, the IIHS Rollover test is not dynamic, but instead loads the roof with weight: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IwOwog3skk"]Tiguan Rollover Crash Test - YouTube[/ame] Another site with advice on avoiding rollovers: http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/Rollover/Causes Oh, and on the subject of race seats, I am convinced a Halo seat offers superior protection for the helmeted and harnessed person, especially for side impacts and rollovers, but would be wary of using it on the street: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...at-Halo-or-not That's it for now. for reading, and for any constructive comments on this subject.