[gmookher]

Originally Posted by ultra

Completely agree. You may or may not want to run an AFR sensor if your car's been tuned safely by a third party but it can't hurt.

Anyone in their right mind who wants to run F/I will want to monitor boost, water temp, oil temp and oil pressure, so right there you'll need gauges, sensors and bungs for all that plus possibly something like the Defi link to control all the gauges. Adds up.

Getting into EBCs vs. MBCs is where it gets tricky - the EBCs can really improve boost response and control over an MBC but you need to buy, install and set up the EBC and then go about tuning the car because the boost will come on differently, hence you need a retune for that to stay safe.

And yeah, not having a full 3 inch header back exhaust would leave a whole bunch of HP and torque on the table.

All of this suggests that a custom tune will also be needed to make sure it's all running efficiently and safely so there's the tuning hardware plus tuning fees to consider.

If folks choose to run these kits as-is maybe the base maps would be sufficient but that'd be a bit half assed IMHO. If you're going to spend thousands on boosting your car it seems wiser to go the extra mile to make sure it's 100% safe and you can keep tabs on things to avoid blowing motors and such.


Also concerned about the heat issues on track and additional mods that might be needed. With no gauges to keep track of stuff you'd risk not realizing anything's wrong until it's too late.


Source: Had a highly tuned Evo that ran reliably on track for 3 years since we did everything very thoroughly...while others blew motors and turbos.

These kits are a good start though. Awaiting guinea pigs & hope folks will do it right so we see happy stories instead of a whole bunch of 'crisis' threads in the future.

really, you want a 3"? are ya sure?
you post is spot on everywhere else(njoyed it!), and thats not saying 3" necessarily a bad idea, but how lofty are your goals to justify a 3" monster and 20lb boost to match(-not directed at you individually, just speaking out loud )?

with turbos you can get too much low-end grunt. Enough torque that you would have trouble hooking-up your tires. When doing your research, with those stout horsepower goals, make sure you don't actually overdo the low-end torque. Have a plan for that, so it doesnt catch you off guard out of a corner.

I've spoken to supermassive personally and his goals represent a very small percentage of the forum's users, so be careful in emulation, unless you have his skillset and budget, and vision, is great -what he is doing- however, you will have to pay to play, so if thats an issue, dont go looking at his setup unless youre okay with the five figure budget

Protection is a significant cost, and should be as part of your build, if its anything like 'massive's or anything beyond most stage1 incantations
People often mix the two up, or even interchange them, when they are in fact two VERY different things. Both pure evil:

Boost Spike: Boost spike is when the boost level initially "spikes" up to higher than the preset boost setting, and then quickly settles back down to where it should be. As most people with turbos know, once the boost pressure in the intake starts to rise, the rate at which it rises quickly increases until the pressure is increasing at a phenomenal rate. This means that, if your boost is set at 12 psi, when it reaches that point it will be increasing so quickly that it will go higher than 12 psi and then drop back down once the boost control system can correct it, which is within a half second or so.

Some causes of spike are bad boost controllers (only ball-and spring type MBC's should be used, and only proven electronic boost controllers should be used), long boost source or wastegate activation hoses, and the lack of any boost controller at all. It's basicially an effect a t slow response time of the boost control system.

Boost Creep: While boost creep also refers to an unwanted rise in manifold pressure, its cause and effect are totally different from those of spike, as is the way it manifests itself.

As you know, boost pressure is controlled by the wastegate, which allows exhaust gasses to bypass the turbine wheel. In effect, it creates an alternate route for the hot exhaust coming out of the motor to take, which means that any gas passing through it will not spin the turbine wheel.

Now, if this wastegate cannot flow enough to bypass the required amount of exhaust, then that means that too much of the gasses are going to go through the turbine wheel, meaning that it will have too much energy imparted on it (it will be spinning too fast). As the excess exhaust gas amount gets greater and greater, the turbine wheel spins faster and faster, and the boost level rises.

Creep happens ANY time when the wastegate cannot bypass enough exhaust gas to keep the boost under control. This can happen when the wastegate is too small in diameter, or when the design of the wastegate doesn't allow it to open enough, or when the wastegate simply doesn't have a good enough flow path to divert a lot of exhaust. It can also happen when you increase the amount of exhaust coming out of a motor (running more boost/airflow, making more power). Loft goal baller types beware this guy, it will blow your engine.

Since this tends to get worse and worse as the engine speed rises (more cycles per second is more conducive to more exhaust gas, to a point), that means that one will see the boost climb to the preset level on the boost controller, and then it will gradually creep up past that line to a "minimum" given the circumstances.

That minimum can be 2 psi above the set boost level, or it can be over 30 psi, depending on how the wastegate is designed, how big it is, the car's setup, and more.

It is also important to note that you certainly can have spike AND creep at the same time, which would result in the boost level jumping up, settling to the preset level, and then slowly climbing back up again as you approach redline.

System design is much more than slapping parts together as you approach bigger budget high hp builds. I worry about the guy ordering parts and the vendor selling them, unless the limits have been tested and tuned, you can spend alot of money to loose both money and lap times if youre not careful. More boost isnt gonna mean better and faster in long run unless executed RIGHT. The heat management will need innovation in our locale.

It can get pricey to experiment and find the best setup when setting foot into the new frontier of the boosters unknown on this engine.

Still oil temps will be fun to deal with as you get into that 12psi plus world on a stock motor.
Pushing boost can get HOT! The only gauge I plan is a oil temp gauge running a tester spec'd higher psi sc setup as I plan to. Turbo buyers will benefit both a boost gauge and for the stage 2 crowd I may even add egt.
even a well tuned solution can still benefit a afr guage if tracking, and driven at limit alot

thus,Lowering compression is inevitable and pricey if your goals include serious boost and any degree of reliability, having understood creep and spike phenomena, for anyone planning past stage2, or even a robust stage 2+.

Thus the poll above and the discussion is really targeted at "JoeDriver" who needs to keep HP and TQ goals in check with budget and relliability.
I suspect most buyers will top out at 2.5" exh, header back, and most guys will run whatever the kits spec is at stage1. ALL prospective stage 2 buyers will be need to look closely at that upgrade path cost and heat strategy for the given solution.

I dont like how I see what appears to be stage 2 setups that dont disclose the whole enchilada, costs, output strategy or other heat management needs on some of these kits so caveat emptor and kudos to those of you playing pioneer!

I admit, I too am very curious what a SC car will be like pulling 15-20 lbs of boost. there will be at big difference between turbos and SCs st those power delivery levels.
High hopes and expectations for supermassives project, it will be the cover of a magazine hopefully when he is done and one sweet fuckin ride!