[oneday]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Are you ESL?

You don't know me. I don't know you. I don't care if you don't agree with me, nor do I care if you like me or not...just don't get personal, the e-bully BS is obviously something you are better than based on the general way you form posts and arguments.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Someone who buys a new car doesn't look at weight, lsd, 6spd manual, low center of gravity..etc. They say, "I have $24k I can afford to spend on a new car. <snip> But to the average person looking for a fun car, they are. If you want to get down to the details and dissect it, sure there are many differences that distinguish them. But the typical car buyer doesn't go all the way down to those small differences? Got it? They go off looks, price, and if the car is in the segment of cars they want to buy.

I admit I live in a world where everything is about cars. My job, my friends, my extracurricular activities, and my online hangouts...so I really do forget that most people are sheep.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I never said someone would buy the FT86 for straight line performance.

No you didn't you said that

Originally Posted by tranzformer

[The] Mustang is definitely going to be cross shopped, especially by those that want the hp/tq for straigtline performance.

The implication is that people that want straightline performance will cross shop the FR-S, which I said was an idiotic thing to do. People that know they want straight line performance will look at the Motor Trend specs before they look at price...once they see the slower 0-60 of the FR-S they will be done shopping it. It's a non-starter.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

There are other of us that will pick the FT86 over the Mustang because we appreciate the light weight aspect of a car that is fun to drive.

I completely agree.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

And yet how many car shoppers do you know that actually know the weights of the cars they are considering buying? Take a guess.

Everyone that I call a friend or socialize with does know these things. But again, I do eat/sleep cars.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Btw you are mistaken about the MS3. For a $24k FWD turbo car it is amazing for the money.

Did I not say that I thought it was a great deal?

Originally Posted by oneday

No doubt the MS3 is a great deal.

Yup. I did.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

It is heavy to what, a Miata? Sure. But is is right there with everything else in its class. And it doesn't plow through every corner. Have you ever driven one? By far better handling than any GTI, Mini, Civic Si or even the 2009-2011 WRX.

I have driven an MS3...both first gen and second gen versions. Though I have never driven either on the street...only on an autox course and a racetrack...that is where they plow. On the street, driven at 6 or 7 10s then they are surely quite docile. The Mk V and VI GTIs also plow when driven hard. The Civic SI is the best handling FWD car* I have driven in a long time. *Clarification: The best stock/street car. .

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Not sure what you are smoking.

Only my inside, front tire lately.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Btw you aren't cross shopping the 370z because the model you will want will cost a good $10-12k more than the FT86 should start off at. Plus it gets worse gas mileage.

No _I_ am not cross shopping the 370Z because I don't really care for it. It's a fantastic car, but not for me. I _AM_ cross shopping a Cayman though...and it is $10-12K more than the FR-S [Side note: I am curious , are you in denial about the naming of the car or are you just referencing the general "FT-86" shared platform?]. The only car I have ruled out as a multi-purpose track/daily vehicle because of mpgs is the RX-8.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I would call both the MS3 and WRX to be economical, sporty and good handling cars. Just depends what your definition of economical is (I think under $25k is economical), sporty (subjective) and good handling (haven't heard anyone knock the MS3 or WRX for poor handling in reference to their price tag).

I agree that WRXs and MS3s are good performance for the dollar. Not sure I get what you are going for with the handling to price reference...

Originally Posted by tranzformer

So in the end, if you specifically want something that is specifically RWD, light, FR and economical then sure you are pigeon holed to something as specific as a Miata or FT86.

I think we also agreed that the GC2.0T would fit that bill.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

The GTI is a valid comparison. Remember people buy cars based on $$ and the segment of car they want. The GTI comes in a 2 door coupe. If the person doesn't care about the FWD vs. RWD thing, then of course the GTI is a valid comparison since it will be in the same price bracket, gets decent gas mileage, has a ton of tuning capability, has a great interior, has a strong following + aftermarket support...etc.

I do think that people that do not currently own a VW will look at the FR-S and some will also look at the GTI...it is a good cross-reference. I don't think most GTI owners will look at the FR-S as a next car for themselves. For better or for worse.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Since you love to nitpick why would you put a Civic Si on the list but complain about a MS3? MS3 kills the Civic Si based on any metric every car magazine uses.

Real world>Car magazine metric. The Civic Si is lighter and more agile than the MS3. Power be damned...the 2006-2010 Civic Si is a fantastic handling car and damn fun to flog.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Mini Cooper S? Really?

Have you ever driven (and I don't mean down the block or on the highway) a Cooper S? It will hand you your ass as soon as you get to an apex. On par with the Miata for handling fun--and I'll retract a statement I made earlier this post...the R53 MCS is the best handling FWD car I have driven. The R56 is good, but does suffer due to the unequal drive shafts.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

And you won't even put the MS3 or GTI on the list. GTI crowd and the Cooper S crowd would go hand in hand.

I'll continue to debate the merits of the MS3, but am willing to consider the GTI as a valid cross.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Fiat 500 Arbath?

Yes. Based on lb/hp and (supposed) handling characteristics and price point. Someone that doesn't need a back seat and wants a tossable fun car will definitely drive the F500A when considering the MCS and Civic SI. Hell, I can't wait to drive one!