[Zadkiel]

I don't think anyone is disputing their usefulness, I know I'm not. I'm just saying that experienced RWD drivers know how to control their cars if the handling becomes a little dicey. I think that an experienced driver would recognize the events taking place in the lead up to a loss of traction.

Let's assume neutral conditions, average temperature of 70-80 degrees F, no in-climate weather, e.t.c. With a communicate car such as this it's fairly easy to discern what is happening when you know what to look for. The low center of gravity and point of rotation let you know when the rear is starting to break loose. It definitely feels that the car rotates right underneath the drivers seat. Before that though, the tires should let you know that they're close to the limits of adhesion. With the stock rubber, that isn't hard to tell. These things howl nearing the limits, with the noise progressing to a squeal when the limit is reached.

That's not to say that the driver shouldn't recognize that these limits will occur quicker/not occur under certain load conditions. If I'm in a turn with a crest in the middle, the signs may not present itself at all do to the weight shifting. The same with off camber turns.

I agree that inexperienced drivers should drive/begin to explore the limits of the car with the TSC and VSC on. As they know the car better, its tendancies, e.t.c., they should spend some time with the aids partially disabled and then fully disabled. The driver aids are helpful, but in the instance I described previously, intervened in a heavy and sudden manner. With the aids off a similair incident was easily managed without drama. Like I said, they aren't useless, but I definitely think that turning them off should be shamed.

Turning them off isn't equal to "track mode" either. Just because I turn them off doesn't mean I think I'm Daijiro Yoshihara or Tom Kristensen.