[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The other thing is that even those listed "Pony" cars are all plummeting in sales numbers over the last two years. The general public is just losing interest in them and performance cars in general.

For the most part that's actually not true. The Mustang continues to do well. The Camaro's sales have gone down ever since they focused more on driving enjoyment / made it a sports car (oh the depressing irony there), and the Challenger's sales, despite the car being almost a decade old, are higher than ever.

Side note: the worst thing to ever happen to the Mustang was the Thunderbird being killed off. Now Ford has to use the Mustang to fill the large coupe hole in it's line up - hence, huge freaking car.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

FYI A80 Supra or US call it MkIV Supra is GT car more than sports car. So GT part haven't changed one single bit.

Anyone that's unaware that the A80 was a GT is ignorant. No disagreement there. However, since Toyota (strangely - probably b/c they had no choice from BMW) decided to make the A90 a 2 seater, it obviously is a more focused car this go around. Nevermind how many times has Tada said the car is all about driver enjoyment?

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

To add, some sports car enthusiasts still admire and wanting to own GT-R (R35) and new NSX, even though it only comes AT. Porsche did AT only for 911 few yrs back, but I feel like that was strategic planning on their marketing side. To add to AT list, look at Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren and other hyper cars brands in there.

I'm sorry but that's 100% false. Porsche did AT only for the 991.1 GT3 and it created an uproar. They reoffered a manual (actually a brand newly developed 6sp manual) for the 991.2 GT3 that came out just 2 years later. However the 991 Turbo is exclusively PDK. But the lion's share of 911's sold are base, S, GTS, AWD models and those have always had a manual option. In fact they developed a 7sp manual specifically for the 991 generation. If we're keeping score that's 2 freshly developed manual transmissions for the 991 911. A far cry from AT only for the 911.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Actually sales isn't really a cop out, it THE justification. If Toyota thought they would not sell everyone they built without the option, they would offer it. That said, I do agree it should be offered, assuming there was one available that didn't require an engineering project to get it to market.

From the beginning Toyota has said this will be a small volume car, on the magnitude of 15,000 cars worldwide (IIRC). At that volume, they would still sell every single car were it only offered with a manual transmission.

Originally Posted by HKz

meh, it would be a much easier pill to swallow if they weren't dumping money into other projects that do have a stick or that damn hypercar...



we've been fed a trillion excuses. Tada has said shifting feel is too compromised for transmissions that can hold as much as torque as they need, he has also said they are worried that offering a stick would hurt the 86 because that is apparently what differentiates the two and pretty sure I read that they didn't think a stick would help with the driving experience...

If the Supra's development has taught me only one thing, it's that nothing out of Tada's mouth makes any sense. Countless statements of his are illogical, inaccurate and flat out false. Take them all with a grain of salt.

Originally Posted by mrg666

Will you listen if somebody explains? Cars are so much faster now that average arm/leg movement speed is not acceptable. Check Nurburgring top cars.

Who cares? Most sports cars are about driving enjoyment and driver involvement. Once a car is capable of 60 mph in less than 4 seconds does a few extra tenths even matter? Not really. If a PDK equipped car gets you around VIR 2 seconds faster than if you had 3 pedals are you gonna feel better about yourself? Doubtful, as there's no reason to.

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Interesting. I have, and while the Mcars usually have shorter throw shifters, I don't find the feedback and pedal action to be much better than the others.

Most interesting is that you rate the 350Z so low. The shifter on the 350z feels solid and very accurate to me. Can't remember the pedal action which probably means it was okay, neither good nor bad.

I'd rate the cars you mentioned like this:

S2000 A
NB Miata A-
BRZ A-
350z B
987 C+
E46/E90 M3 C+
E46//E90 C

When I called BMW manuals terrible I meant for a sports car. When compared to MTs in ecoboxes and trucks the BMW manuals are great. The mostly need more feedback and no delay in the clutch action. I can live with longish throws. Interesting that we disagree on where the Z and the Cayman end up.

Of all the cars I've owned with a manual transmission, I would rate my Cayman's shifter to be the worst. S2000>BRZ>GSR>Cayman. Still, I would take it over a PDK every day of the week and twice on Sundays. I have handled the shifter of a GT4 (sitting in a parking lot - wasn't able to drive it) and it felt very VERY GOOD. So even with the long cable shift linkages, it is apparently possible to improve the feel.