[Celicadude]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Sorry, a Lincoln Navigator?? this fat SUV thing??? Faster than you in a Lambo?
How comes???




Sorry, I think you got me wrong here. I never intended to say it should always be switched off. Especially not for beginners.
I just said you can't learn to drive your car well, if you never switch it off.

In fact I always switch the traction control off, when I got some nice corners ahead (my current car does not have VSC).

Let me explain something.
Imaging you - in 20 years from now.
Your son comes to you saying:

"Daddy, please, stop that steering nonsense! This is very dangerous! What do you think why your car is equipped with an automated steering system? This is not fun, it's very dangerous to touch the steering wheel while driving on public roads! A friend of mine recently touched the steering wheel at 40 mph and immediately crashed into a parking car! What other proof do you need?? Please, promise that you will not touch the steering wheel ever again!"

What would you say?
Or think?

Can you imagine, I have driven for 17 years RWD cars without ANY such systems: No ABS, no VSC, no traction control, no nothing.
In drove them in the dry, in the wet, on snow, on the way to work and on a hot lap on a racing track.

And now some young guys come telling me this is way too dangerous......
What????

This is why I try to tell you guys two different things at the same time:
- Yes, you are right, please be carefull!
- No, you definitely can and should learn how to drive a car by yourself!

Yes I think we agree on the same point. Learn your car but be safe in public. People should learn the limits of their cars under controlled conditions. And yes lol the big ass navigator smoked the hell out of me. Navigator driven by a professional instructor with 30 years experience vs me in a 200k car with 0 track experience. Experience beats raw power every time. I will be the first one to say that I know nothing about driving on a track, and that it was a very humbling and very enriching experience. Which is why after that drive I signed up for the performance driving school using my own car. You are obviously more experienced than most people here with rwd cars because you've been driving them for so long. But for the new comers who grew up with fwd civics, integras and in my case celicas all we're hearing is that its "no fun to drive with traction control on, you need to switch it off in order to have fun" "or you will crash with it on so might as well switch it off" which I think is putting out the wrong message. Is it more fun with it off when you know what you are doing. Yes. Is it necessary to turn it off for daily driving, probably not. Problem is 90% of people overestimate their driving abilities big time (as I did with the lambo example above) and sometimes some people end up paying the price.

TCS is just a safety system just like any other safety system. Would you rip out your airbag or not wear a seat belt because you've been in accidents without them and walked away fine. There was a point in time where these features weren't in cars. They're there for your protection and the protection of others. The fact of the matter is nowadays people are not required to know how to drive their cars well at all(at least in the US) in order to get a license (The state of MD didn't require people to drive on public roads at all until just recently). I really wish they made the testing more stringent (I mean seriously how is making a 3 point turn and parallel parking going to help you merge on a highway), but that just isn't the reality. TCS in general (not just in sports cars)is a system that makes sure that somebody who doesn't know their car, aka the vast majority of drivers, and doesn't care to know their car, or thinks they know their car, doesn't crash into everything when they make a mistake, or are put into a situation they weren't trained to handle. Hell there was a study not to long ago that said most BMW owners didn't realize their car was rwd. This is the world of driving ignorance we live in today. Would it be nice if everyone was forced to become better drivers, yup, but it's not going to happen anytime soon. But for now, i'm all for electronics overcompensating peoples abilities on public roads. I'm not worried about experienced people like yourself that know how to drive and don't crash every car they own. Its these other people,and boy have i seen them, who need all the help they can get. On a side note, living in the DC area I wouldn't mind if everyone over here drove a car that drove and steered itself lol. The idiots that drive out here are suicidal and it would probably eliminate this god awful traffic.

But yes I think we agree on the same points here LOL.