Quote:
Originally Posted by blur
We all know that the FR-S is an extremely easy car to reach a point of oversteer with, while other cars dial in understeer (such as the BRZ) to prevent it a little more. Many car reviewers were surprised to see such a raw car in stock configuration. Why do you think Subaru went with more understeer? Because most people who've had AWD cars know nothing about oversteer, and even though many reviewers said that the tail of this car comes out very naturally, it's obviously still surprising for someone with previous experience of FWD/AWD.
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You are right, the BRZ seems to be a little more stable on the rear axle.
However, the BRZ is still a 200 hp lightweight RWD car, and you sure can get the rear axle traction brake off.
In the accident described here I wouldn't expect any difference, if the driver would have used and FR-S, and BRZ or an MX-5.
Yes, the main point is, that you need to learn, how to handle oversteer, no matter what kind of RWD car you pick.
Folks, my first car was an old beetle with merely 34 hp. RWD, rear engine and certainly no electronic nannies at all. But with a swing axle, that lead to lots of oversteer, if pushed. There was no option, you had to learn by yourself, how to handle RWD.
Nowadays, people start with FWD, hop into their very first RWD car with even 6 times as much power, and expect that all the stupid electronic crap keeps them from learning, how to drive a car and everything has to be fool prove. At the same time all these people moan: Oh, this car needs more power!
I have to say, that makes me somewhat concerned....
Don't get me wrong, I don't say "switch of the VSC and go full throttle".
I just say, learn by time how to drive a RWD car. This can also be done on large empty places late at night or on autocross or whatever can be found in your part of the world.
This is why I already twice asked, if someone has a little tutorial how to learn handling oversteer a RWD car to support the beginners - or if I finally need to translate mine (which is not really easy for me, as I am not a native speaker and often lack the right technical terms)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celicadude
Dude seriously this whole mentality of you cant have fun unless the traction control is a load off crap and is what is going to get more of these cars wrapped around more poles. I just came back from a ferrari/lambo driving event that i found on groupon and had a blast. And all the electronic nannies were on and doing their thing. In fact, I was too busy looking for the next apex to even care. For the vast majority of people purchasing this car this will be their first experience driving a rwd sports car (hell for some people on here this will be their first manual car).
I wouldn't be surprised the reason the vast majority of sports cars in the late 80's-90's were either discontinued or changed to fwd was because of the difficulty of the average driver to recover from oversteer (ie: old corollas and celicas). Not everyone is a weekend enthusiast and most of us grew up driving fwd platforms, myself included. So now that rwd has been made a little more user friendly the automotive world/press has decided to bash tcs/vcs etc, the same tcs/vsc that I believe has convinced many manufacturers to bring back the rwd sports car to joe schmoe public. The reason all these journalists hate the "nannies" is because they've been driving for years. And to be quite honest I would too if I had their kind of experience. But I don't, so I'm going to know my limits until I get better and move up to something more challenging. And yes, could someone still demolish their car with everything still on? Yes, but why making it even more likely to happen by turning them off, especially in the hands of someone inexperienced.
So if you are new to this car or any rwd car for that matter, go to the track and learn its limits. Get professional training, and have fun in a safe environment. Start with everything on, and THEN work your way up to everything off.
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This is exactly, why I think that especially Lambo owners are no sports drivers. And the same is true for most Ferrari drivers. Way to much horsepower, but no driving skills to handle it.
Actually the FWD grew so much because it is cheaper to produce a new "sports car" based on a standard FWD car platform than to develop a new RWD platform for this car. That's all, it's just about money.
I see a very bad tendency today in cars coming up, that go very good in the dry (because this is, where all the magazines do their tests), but are very difficult to drive in the wet.
Actually there are cars today, that do not have a well developed suspension. Instead the manufacturer just hopes, that VSC will keep the car on the road...somehow. Exactly this is the reason, why you can't switch off VSC in many modern cars. Again it's all about money - to save developing costs for a good suspension.
Have you ever thought what will happen, if your VSC doesn't work properly or just fails?
It would be better to force manufactures legally to have a VSC/TCS/ABS off mode, so they are forced to develop good suspensions.
In addition, VSC together with well developed driving skills can get dangerous, because the system does not compensate for your steering response. The same is true for some other modern assist systems.