[oneday]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

oh man i know a few of you ppl..

It sucks that you had a bad instructor, there are stupid/ignorant people everywhere...it's be like saying, "I read something untrue on the internet, therefore all of the internet is wrong."

Originally Posted by 70NYD

also no offense but those posts are HUGE, interesting but HUGE.

I'll keep try to keep this one shorter.
[edit: I got the following message while attempting to post this reply]

Originally Posted by FT86Club.com

The text that you have entered is too long (9880 characters). Please shorten it to 8000 characters long.

Originally Posted by Dimman

One source of my rage :
[picture of heinous car]

That is a terrible atrocity of a car, but people make even the most beautiful cars completely repugnant with over the top modifications.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm going to pick on the Pastrana example.
OMG a tranversely mounted sidevalve V10 powering only the front wheels!

Wait a minute... That's suspiciously like a regular Subaru H4. OMG Only a top racing team laboratory could come up with such an advanced modification!

Nice, I don't even have to type a reply. I assume you just skimmed over what I said the first time, so I'll bold some to make it easier for you to glean something from:

Originally Posted by oneday

Yes, the Rally America STI looks like an STI you can buy at your local dealership and it even has a turbo charged boxer motor and AWD chassis. The engine in the rally STI shares only the base architecture and is built from the ground up to be a motor for a rally car.

You see, despite any stereotyped-perceived ignorance about cars because I occasionally instruct, I actually do know quite a bit about cars [yes, 70NYD, that one stung a little]. I do know what is under the hood of an RA Open Class car. I've even supplied teams with the parts for one.

Originally Posted by Dimman

And when we talk about realistic modifications that people do, it's downright minor. These things make way less power than a lot of modded street-driven Subies.

They're no more purpose built motors than what are in some of my friends' cars (strengthened internals, head work, minor mods to a stock crank)

Your friends do have purpose built motors. The 500whp STI sitting a mere 30 feet from me now has a purpose built motor. They are built for the purpose of making gobs of power and to be able to handle all of the heat and stresses associated with it. RA teams also do not get that power with Subaru OEM parts (you show me EJ257 with 350whp+ & stock internals & I'll show you a rebuild in T-3000 miles). The internals, turbo, FMIC and other bits you mentioned are all made by aftermarket companies or custom made by the team. I'd have conceded your point if the RA STI had raided the OEM parts bin to achieve the "minor mods" but alas, they did not, further reinforcing my point that these are purpose built motors and share little (save the bare block) with a showroom stock STI.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Alonso's Ferrari is a purpose-built racecar, the 'Camry' NASCARs are purpose-built racecars, and Foust's tC is a purpose-built race car.

Yeah, I know, I already said that.

Originally Posted by Dimman

The rest are still production-based

Referring to the DTM Audi, GA RX-8 and C6.R? They share body panels that look like the street car. The C6.R shares frame rails, steering rack and LSx motor architecture, but that's about it. The RX-8 uses a 3-rotor that has more in common with the 13B than the current Renesis found in the RX-8. The DTM is as much like a road going A4 as a NASCAR Impala is to the one on the street.

Originally Posted by Dimman

taking an STI to Open class rally spec is hardly the same thing as 'converting' a tC to be a RWD V8 smoke machine.

Not the same, but not entirely dissimilar. The tC is hardly the first or only FWD car converted to RWD for the sake of a racing-type endeavor. Stevens Motorsports did it with the GXP-R (which is now wheres a Camaro body--but the running gear is identical to the GXP-R).

Yes in a perfect world all cars would be AWD or RWD and race cars would be identical to their road going counterparts. But I doubt most people want no heat or radio, lexan windows, 6-pt harnesses and roll cage-inhibited visibility--I know I don't want glass windows, airbags, sound deadening and AC in a race car.

Originally Posted by Dimman

And at least the Ferrari will have more relevant technology trickle-down to its street cars than the Camry or tC...

I somewhat agree with you here...ugh, sorry, just threw up in my mouth a little...It is easier to see F1 tech make it's way into a $250K+ car than NASCAR tech into a $25K car...that is the price of performance, and it is part of the reason both Toyota and Honda got out of F1--no halo car to transfer tech to (the LF-A is a lot of F1 tech, but it took too long to get into production). I doubt there is any marquee that is getting tech from drifting. One of the highest tech pieces of equipment on my buddies AE86 is a plastic zip tie. Seriously.

Originally Posted by Dimman

However this is the first brand to fit the bill.

Hardly. Scion isn't even the the first brand to endorse their customer's desire to express their uniqueness. Porsche (once again I am comparing Scions to Porsches, god help me) offers full customization of interior/exterior/wheel & caliper colors...all through their website, it's quite amazing how ugly you can make a 911 if your pockets are deep enough.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Hell, even Hyundai decided to try to walk the walk

And at that point there was a dimwitted, short-sited, hater on a message board bashing Hyundai for even thinking about offering a RWD sports car.

Not even remotely realistic, but maybe Toyoda wants Scion to have a _real_ RWD car to go drifting with--would that shut you up?

Originally Posted by Dimman

What's maybe ignorant is being unaware that Toyota has already done this once with the SW20 MR-2.

Completely aware of the situation, ramifications and ultimate outcome [perhaps your skimming, once again, left you without the full scope of my previous posts?]. A RR =/= a FMR. They are not even close. I've driven MR2s in anger, I know they can be fast & capable, but if you get behind in your inputs it will definitely bite you in the ass. You won't see the same quick-to-kill-ya-handling from a FMR type of layout.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Both Nissan and Subaru have managed to shake up their 'meh' images with good product. If your tC had been a Camry or a Corolla coupe, you would have still bought it I'll assume.

I completely agree, damn it...now I got chunks. Yes, I would have bought the tC if it was the same car as a different model, and that's sort of my point in all of this: If FT-86 is what it is supposed to be, I'll be interested regardless of brand.

Originally Posted by Dimman

My big issue is if a company makes more money from a marketing-driven brand than from an innovation/engineering-drive brand, what does that mean for the future products?

But it's not like Toyota is not doing any advancement of tech. And the money spent on marketing is making Toyota as a whole, more profitable. If Scion were not giving Toyota a substantial ROI, the brand would be axed with a swiftness.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Did you hit '3' when you meant '4'?

No I meant 3. Mk3s are more form over function than the Mk4s. The Mk4 guys are still pushing the performance envelope of the motor (while it is often with polished or brightly powder coated performance bits, they are still pushing)--christ, one of the guys I work with has an 800whp Mk4 with stock internals...and he is embarrassed that is all he puts down. Mk3 guys are to busy replacing head gaskets, rewiring or deleting their TEMS or trying to find Kaminari body kits to cover the rust to do anything relevant or interesting.