[oneday]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Oneday and Ryun84:
This is the internet, grow some thicker skin you pansies...

I'm not the one acting all butt-hurt because a car might be labeled as one brand instead of another.

Originally Posted by Dimman

As for informing me of Toyota and FHI's joint business relations to shock and amaze me? Fuck off and read some of my earlier posts. I know what I'm talking about, this isn't news, or even correct (20ish% does not make a majority...).

Not amaze, simply inform. And no, I won't fuck off nor will I read any more of your posts then I need to because I do not think that you know what you are talking about*. Based on your blind-hatred for Scion combined with the Toyota/Subaru leg-humping I was not sure if you were aware of the FHI/ToMoCo relationship--which is definitely not "news" but you'd be surprised by the number of people that don't know that.

*Case in point: 20% does make the majority (controlling interest) when the other 80% is comprised of individuals and/or companies that own between 1% and 19% each.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Here's what Scion's innocent little marketing-driven brand will do to the FT/R-86/S if it gets a hold of it. It will turn it into a terrible handling car.

As you have been quick to point out: Scion is a marketing/branding tool. Toyota & Subaru are developing and tuning the car. Therefore, no matter which brand the FR-S/FT-86 gets badged as, any handling dynamic blame (and/or praise) will be ToMoCo's and FHI's.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Why? You see Scion has been selling slow, front-wheel drive cars aimed at impressionable youth. Not news. It also has a ridiculous 'racing' program in which Scion-looking cars compete in drift, drag and time-attack events and now videos such as Tanner Foust's street drift. Also not news. It has a huge percentage of douchey fanboys that rivals the post-Fast and Furious Honda scene.

All this means what exactly? Scion shouldn't be allowed to sell a RWD car because they haven't in the past? Brilliant. Besides, no other brands or racing organizations have been successful with "look-alike" cars.

Originally Posted by Dimman

The FT/R-86/S will have an incredibly able chassis if tuned to take advantage of it. This comes from moving the short boxer engine behind the front axle and as rear-ward as possible, centralizing mass. This creates what is known as a low polar moment of inertia. What this does for us is allow the car to be potentially very responsive to steering input and turn in very quickly. And in case anyone forgot it is RWD.

Wow, is all of that supposed to be a bad thing? Because, damn, that sounds like every thing I usually look for in a performance car--and everything every track car I've ever owned has possessed. Having a car with a low CG, good cross-weights, & near equal f/r balance typically means a neutral handling car, and are definitely not things I expect (or would look for) in a Toyota (save the LF-A) a Subaru (especially a WRX or STI) or a Scion. So this car could be a game changer for any brand.

Originally Posted by Dimman

By now maybe some of the more insightful readers (and maybe SW20 drivers) will see where I'm going with this...

I'm not sure where you were intending for that to go, but I saw it point towards something about RWD cars with horizontally opposed motors nestled low and aft of the front axle being a litigious nightmare for the brand and cause said brand/model to fail. Was I close?

FWIW, there is this little shop in Stuttgart, that, for the last 40 years, has been putting out cars with a motor that hangs _behind_ the rear axle. I think they've done alright with their platforms in both racing and street application. I could be wrong though.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Toyota has also had a lot of bad press recently regarding the throttle situation, which is being shown recently to have a lot more to do with driver error than previous media has reported.

Now let's put this all together...

Oh, now I see where this is going:

• If Toyota sells the FT-86 then old people and non-enthusiasts that buy cars as appliances and who can't control what their feet do or where their cars go the FT-86 will be an overwhelming success.
• If the FT-86 is sold as a Subaru then the middle aged outdoorsy people and soccer moms will make the FT-86 a success (just like the XT or SVX).
• If the FT-86 is sold as a Scion marketed to younger people that have enthusiast intentions (albeit many are more show car than go car types, but they are enthusiasts non the less) the FT-86 will fail miserably.

Did I get that right?

Originally Posted by Dimman

Toyota's worst-case scenario with a Scion FR-S:
Young douchey Scion fanboys wanting to imitate Tanner Foust's driving, trade in their heavier, doughy, less powerful, FWD tCs. They now have a RWD, lighter, more powerful, drift-capable machine. Scenes of carnage follow.

Or these...let's call them "drifters" for lack of a better name...these drifters could buy an AE86 (a Corolla of all things) with a silver top for under $10K and have the same thing: A low weight (1800lbs), RWD and 170whp. That never happens, wait....that _is_ what many drifters have.

Though I suppose if you want to make the argument that these prospective buyers are specifically looking for a new(ish) car that is $20-25K then the Genesis, Miata, S2000, 350Z, E36 could all be viable options. All are RWD with powerful motors and (most) are very nimble and regarded as good handling cars. Man, how do those car's manufacturers get any sleep at night? What, with the non-stop law suits and all.

Originally Posted by Dimman

So to prevent this Toyota will have lawyers and PR people telling them to dial in a fuck-ton of understeer if it comes out as a Scion. (Memories of the MR2?)

I'll change a few words from that to illustrate a point:

Subaru had engineers, test drivers, lawyers and PR people telling them to dial in a fuck-ton of understeer to keep kids from killing themselves. (The reality of the WRX & STI)

The point being: All cars sold are designed to understeer (have you driven an STI? Elephant is closer to the truth than pig) because most of the people on the road do not know how to properly drive when the back of the car is not behind them (for those that don't know [I'm sure Dimman knows this]: If your car is oversteering, lifting is bad.).

Originally Posted by Dimman

Peace!

Back-atcha