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Originally Posted by Conor
2GR weighs about 360 pounds, loaded up, as I recall.
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As does the 1UZ V8. Toyota took a step Backwards this generation wrt engine weight.
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Originally Posted by Conor
We're not talking about a 2,000 pound Miata or Corolla. This thing is almost certain to tip the scales around 3,000 pounds.
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Says who? While you might be right, I don't think this thing will weight any more than 2700lbs. If it does (in NA trim) Toyota will have failed imho.
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Originally Posted by Conor
And I'm arguing that 99.9% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in handling thanks to a ~50-75 pound difference in weight that's CENTERED in the chassis (behind the front wheels, in front of the rear). The different would be very, very minimal.
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Ah, but you can't position the 2GR as far back as you could the boxer engine. The CoG would also be MUCH higher, and it's not just centering the weight, but lowering it as well. Further more, it would have design implications (aesthetic as well as aerodynamic) too. It would be impossible to make the hoodline as low, especially to comply with pedestrian saftey regulations.
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Originally Posted by Conor
You're just hammering the old-fashioned "4-cylinder power is the only way to go!" attitude into the ground. 4-cyls are okay, but they suck compared to a nice, compact V6 or V8 with greater displacement.
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Of course, but I think you fail to grasp that this car is no Supra. I love Toyota's V6 & V8 engines, but I think an engine should be well matched to the chassis to make a great car, and I do think that a bigger chassis would be better for a 2GR engine. Maybe if they decide to make a roadster for Lexus, stretching it ever so slightly and forgetting the 2 rear seats then a 2GR would be a perfect fit.
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Originally Posted by Conor
I love my 4AGE-powered '86 MR2, but the 4AGE is a raging pile of shit compared to new stuff and the car would perform a million times better with virtually any newer 4-cyl powertrain in it.
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I think calling it a "raging pile of shit" is a bit extreme, but what else do you expect from a 24+ year old engine? If the engines today weren't better then that would indeed make
them raging piles of shit
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Originally Posted by Conor
Did you even read what I wrote? The 2GRFSE is already developed. They'd have to design some mounting brackets and bolt it in, basically. With the boxer engine they're not just throwing a Subaru drive train in (from what I understand)..
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Basically... they'd have to redesign the front end, find a manual transmission to go with it, probably put a bigger diff in the back, probably redesign the suspension geometries, bigger brakes... and the list goes on.
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Originally Posted by Conor
The 2JZ died because 1) aside from the turbo version, it was a raging pile of shit that got horrible fuel economy, 2) belched smog emissions and 3) made shitty power compared to the alloy-block V6s used in other Toyotas.
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For somebody who is supposed to know a lot, you really do talk a lot of shit.
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Originally Posted by Conor
You're making weird arguments based on "they don't care.." which isn't true. Money is the reason that Toyota doesn't make an AE86 anymore.. or an MR2.. or a Supra.. or even a Celica. Money is the name of the game and if you think Toyota is building the FT86 for fun, you don't understand how the business works.
If they can't make money off of something, they're not going to build it. Especially not the modern, shareholder-focused mega-corporate Toyota.
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The most sensible thing you have said... up to a point
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Originally Posted by Conor
You have no idea what you're talking about. 2ZZGEs wear cams out trying to act like VTEC engines.. both 1ZZ and 2ZZs have problems with leaking water pumps among other things.. They're not perfect. No engine is. The ZZ series engines were raging piles of crap compared to the old S-series 4-cylinders..
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There you go with the bullshit again....
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Originally Posted by Conor
4AGEs blew head gaskets, leaked tons of oil (under warranty!) back in the 80s.. 7MGTEs blew tons of head gaskets... 3SGTEs aren't the reliable monsters people think they are. They leak, have tons of electronics issues, tend to run f***ing pig rich all the time...
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Hmmm. GIGO.
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Originally Posted by Conor
4-cylinder engines suck compared to a well-engineered 6-cyl or 8-cyl. It's just a fact. The only reason to use a 4-cyl is cost and economy. It's a compromise that hurts the ultimate performance of a car like this.
I think I'd be happy with a tweaked 4-cyl boxer engine in this car.. but there's no question that a proven V6 putting ~270+whp down wouldn't be better  |
It seems that for you, everything comes down to power, and that's what your problem is. Pull your head out of you ass, and just MAYBE, you could get what this car is about. No, I don't want Toyota to handicap the car (see MR-2 Spyder), but the car has to work for the pretty blonde who doesn't like to spend much on gas, or the wanna be cool eco geek as much as the hard core track nuts/sunday canyon racers like the people on this forum. As you said, if this car doesn't sell, we will have to go without after a generation or two. Furthermore, saying 4 cylinders are crap, is a huge injustice to the legendary 4 cylinder motors that have existed, and care fuck all about cost or economy.