[mrtodd]

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

Will your car be different from the other BRZ's/FRS's it sure as heck will, but you're absolutely disillusion if you think the end result will total less than a WRX out the door. Even with the WRX's current ~5,000 dollar markup over MSRP your still going to be spending much less money on the WRX than you would boosting your BRZ from scratch. I'm assuming you haven't put together your own turbocharger system or you would realize those "3,000-4,000" dollar turbo builds are almost NEVER 3000-4000 dollars...If they come CLOSE to those figures it's ALWAYS because they are turbocharging a platform that has been around for ages and ages and has been done so many times you could find cliff notes on how to turbocharge that car and that engine at a elementary school library.

I never said I would be boosting it, nor did I say anything about a "3,000-4,000 dollar turbo build." I stated I wouldn't need to spend the difference in money increasing HP/TQ numbers that would be adequate for myself. Performance is relative. My point of this previous post was this - if you idolize the performance of the STi, then why not buy that and quit complaining? You're taking my post out of context.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

Factor in the turbocharger, the charge pipe, the exhaust manifold, the exhaust tubing, the metal work from drilling mounting, welding bungs, the oil lines, the inter-cooler, the couplings, the dump tubing, the blow off valve, the waste gate, the controller, the various catch cans here and there to keep your system gunk free, then there's the engine internals that will likely have to be tweaked to keep everything from having tolerances tighter than that of a space shuttle like a tear down to see what the ring lands look like, are they meaty or flimsy? is the powder cast piston sturdy enough to handle ANYTHING or was it designed with lightweight revving in mind and waiting on the right temp fire to melt a hole in it. Will you shove a MLS in the head, will the stock studs/bolts meet the parameters, will those settings be screwed up by using OEM head hardware because no one makes aviation grade studs etc etc.

"Shove a MLS in the head"...? I didn't know Subaru/Toyota, or any other current engine manufacturer will using anything BUT MLS for the headgasket? I'm assuming you mean an aftermarket, thicker than stock, MLS gasket with the intent to lower static C/R. Sigh... Really? You really do take me to be an idiot. Again, this point is moot considering I never mentioned building a turbo kit. Thanks for compiling a list, though, however lacking it may be!

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

And that isn't even ventured down the long arduous task of fuel management/engine management and tuning. Will the EMU allow for piggyback programming? will you need a stand alone just to make use of it? will your car even RUN without the EMU or is this some great security system that will cut off the electrical start signal from the ignition if it's not in factory condition?
Will the emu throw codes for no reason other than to give you a hard time
etc etc.

I know the enormous task of tuning all to well. Such a thing CAN BE dreadful, yes when attempting to cut corners, but it's nothing new to me. Even so, again, I never specified anything in regards to specific engine tuning in my previous post.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

Building plenty of engines should have thought you at least these 2 things.
1. No two engine builds are the same. So pretending to have everything buttoned up and in the bag before anythings hit the shop floor is about as inappropriately boisterous as going into a church yelling about how many people you mowed down in some war.

2. There is a world of difference between building a performance engine from a power plant that is brand new to the tuning world and building a performance LSx, B Series, 302, EJ20, 4g63 etc etc.

I never said I had "everything buttoned up and in the bag." It really is beginning to sound like you have not read everything in the conversation between Ash and I - need I repeat again the point of our conversation? Your second point, however, I do agree with for the most part. I wouldn't say a "world of a difference" between them, considering that production 4-stroke engines haven't changed substantially in the past 20 years, the basic concepts are very much the same. In fact, discussions I've had on previous engine builds about combustion chamber burn theory still seem to have plenty of merit even today and in fact, seem to have manifested itself in later engine models' combustion chamber, piston, and porting design. So in the end, YES, you are absolutely correct in the fact that tuning and building the FA20 will most certainly be different than any other engine I've built; however, it's not as big as a difference as your choice of words makes it out to be. Either way, again, I never stated a specific plan for what to do with the engine in my first post. So....moot point, again.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

This entire statement contradicts the first statement:"to make your car different than all the others on the road, all while costing less than the car you mentioned"...

You talk of his "spending 10k on ground effects door stabilizers and wings" as a infantile insult, when in fact he is bringing up the EXACT same point you argued in favor of. "To make your car different from the rest

Putting a turbocharger system on the BRZ without any sort of "goal" in performance, or even a benchmark to shoot for (in the comparison no one wants to make) holds no more merit than putting fender flares wings blacked out lenses stretched tires and camber;camber;camber.

Who says the car has to LOOK different? That's not my idea of modification, nor is it anything I'd spend my money on. *shrugs* To each his own. And let me repeat myself, again, I never said anything about boosting it in my original post.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

As for the last bit of the paragraph about spending less and getting the performance you want. NO, you cannot. You can no more say that about this car right now than he can say this car is destined for performance mediocrity. You don't know how reliable this car is to beNOWgin with, yet somehow you'll manage to make it as "fast as you want it to be all while maintaining reliability"... How fast do you want it? Do you have a first hand account on exactly what this car feels like on a track or other performance situation as it sits? No..So you don't know whether you'll need to spend 10 dollars or 10 thousand.

This is where you are completely wrong. Note that I said, "performance I want." Desire is subjective, so is performance. That being said, you have no idea at what level of performance will suit MY needs in this car. And neither do I at this point! Who knows, maybe I'll be perfectly happy with the stock output? The point is that I won't be spending as much as it costs to buy a WRX STi - if I was to spend anything close to the costs of that car, I'd just buy that car to begin with. Again, you're missing the point of our discussion.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

THEN to go on and talk about reliability on a BRAND new car with a BRAND new engine after you just completely dismissed the idea of keeping the warranty? That's the ramblings of someone who really doesn't value ANYTHING about a good performance vehicle...

Hey, if you want your warranty that's totally okay with me. I just don't value it as high as other people do. I'm sorry that such a concept irritates you.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

Say what you want about this car and what it could do, but the fact remains..The people who produced the engine, Subaru...Fuji heavy.. They've produced "engine families" of this scale only ONE other time. This is a HUGE move for Subaru, to drop an engine lineup and make a new one. The LAST time they did this was over 2 DECADES ago, and for the entire FIRST decade after their engines had problem after problem after problem, it took them nearly 20 years to even ADMIT FAULT to their engines having reliability issues, but now you're going to jump headlong into their brand new engine, dismiss a warranty for no other reason than pride

We both know you are absolutely correct about the lack of history on this engine. Even so, it sounds like you're assuming that the first thing I'd do is "bolt on a turbo kit" that I apparently don't know how to piece together, and ruin my factory warranty. Fact is, you have no idea what my own personal plans are for this car. You're making plenty of assumptions here. I never outlined what my own performance goals are for this car. My point was that not everyone is as equally worried about the factory warranty. Perhaps if I was to buy it new, straight out of the dealer's lot, then sure, I'd be much more worried about a powertrain warranty.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

So you've stated your opinion on him..Let's see how much of a grasp on engine tuning/modification YOU display after openly criticizing someone else simply based on their disagreement over an un-spoken for car.

You seem to be taking plenty of offense over a simple post on an online forum, but sure, I've got a little bit of extra time at the moment. I'll read on.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

You know what this says to me? This says to me you don't really understanding tuning but you're willing to read a press package as if it was the gospel.

"86 mil bore and stroke with a very low center of gravity!!" Wow!!! You know what that means to an experienced engine builder? Truly nothing. We're on a web site talking about a car we might lease/buy etc so we can put a couple grand into it to make it our own. What's not happening? We're not being given these cars to perform hundreds of thousands of dollars of R&D work, we're not going to use this car as the focal point of a potential million dollar racing campaign. We're not in the big leagues, so you know what the engines "low center of gravity" really means? it really means it'll have clearance issues with the parts we ad, and it'll be a tight fit for people with big hands to work underneath it. That's all. In the real world the center of gravity will account for nathan in the grand scheme of things. The ONLY reason it is getting the attention it is getting is because Toyota/Subaru TOLD you it was important. The use of engines as a pivot/anchor point in cars in the normal world has and will remain a practice used as a counterbalance, when the chassis/driveline has a fundamental flaw of some kind that can't be corrected via standard practices without overshooting the budget, you lower things to make the changes you already HAVE made or are going TO make more effective.. Lowering the CoG on a lincoln town car or Honda prelude doesn't turn it into some lucid beast of a track car.

You have an excellent point about my "low center of gravity" wording there. Chances are this most certainly will make working in the engine bay a major pain in the ass, but maybe not. That's something we'll find out first hand soon enough. Either way, a low CoG just seems like a nice bonus to me since all of the engines I've worked on have been relatively higher in the engine bay. Just expressing that it's something I'm excited for. My post had nothing to do with lowering anything on the car, rather that this engine is horizontal and situated much lower than what I'm used to. Again, you're making plenty of assumptions here, putting plenty of words in my mouth. It really seems like you're taking my words out of context. Oh well.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

Direct injection + High compression means one thing. Tuning companies don't have to do any work to sell products...All they have to do is sell you a Flasher. Instead of them having to do work on new products for a new car, now they only have to sell you a small little black box that plugs into a diagnostic port and adjusts your fuel map...Instant profit margin jump for their company.

Hah. Flash the ROM by some random aftermarket company's "chip". Thanks but no thanks. I prefer having control over the fuel and spark/valve timing values myself.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

That's because they're smaller, and less sophisticated.

Less sophisticated engines = More material + Less moving parts

more Material = sturdier
Less moving parts = less sources for catastrophic failure.

Such is your opinion, and I fully respect that.

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

1. They should have left more overhead...Drop the performance in favor of ACTUAL tuning ability, because right now this car is nothing but a 200HP Easter egg. it's done cooking and that's all it's ever going to be is a hardboiled egg, the only change that can happen is in the form of paint jewels and glitter....

I agree with you for the most part in concept; however, I disagree with you on the notion that "the only change that can happen is in the form of paint jewels and glitter...." That statement seems pretty extreme, to me. There will be plenty of people that will build this platform (ie "change") to put down some really awesome numbers - both on the track and the dyno.