Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB - View Single Post - building a race car, damn i am confused, help!

puma · 04-01-2014, 06:14 PM

[QUOTE=rice_classic;1641608]Have you already seen this Puma: http://www.scion.ca/scion/en/lifestyle/racing Don't know if that applies to what you're doing but the series you're running in seems to be listed, or at least "was" listed for 2013.

Yes, my serie is listed in their and i know we are going to be winning races so the extra money would be welcome, just hope it will still be there in a year or two.

My opinions on your build:

Engine: Whatever you go with, SC or Turbo, you may want to consider hitting your target WHP with pump gas for 2 reasons: 1) that will significantly reduce racing/operating costs dramatically and your pump gas in Canadia is terrific to begin with. 2) If you do find you need a "bit more room to grow" you can then upgrade a pulley, bump the boost and switch to race fuel. If I can be competitive on 94 octane, I will always choose that option.

Yeah 94 is the specified fuel for the SPC but in CTCC, they need to run the Race fuel (can't remember which one) so this is why i don't mind making the big horsepower with race fuel, i'll have to run it anyway. Not sure our pump gas is all that good with the ethanol they put in it now.

Radiator: I've been around racing for over 10 years now I don't remember ever seeing a combo radiator/oil cooler being utilized personally. It's a terrific idea for a street car but for a race car it is my opinion that the two systems should function separately. I'm happy to discuss my reasoning separately if that want. Suggestion is get a good aluminum radiator with a proper screen in front of it to protect it from anything that might puncture it. (kind of like the OEM grill does). And get a separate oil cooler. If the oil cooler is in front of the radiator (which is OK) make sure it's flush against the surface of the radiator. If not (if there's a gap) make sure there's a fan on that side of the radiator because the turbulence in the gap while significantly decrease the flow of air through the radiator that is behind the oil cooler. Finally, you can make even a stock radiator perform MUCH better by the use of shrouding. Making sure NO air can flow around, under or above the radiator so that it all must flow through it. HUGE gains in efficiency when doing this.

edit: due to the reality of a FMIC as well you should definitely be looking at high-flow fans. Another great way to decrease under hood temps is to shield the header (like the OEM is) with a coating, wrap or actual welded on shielding. Just a thought.

Yeah, wrap for the exhaust and ducting for the rad is certainly going to happen, i am used to work around rotaries and helped someone build a RX-8 for racing and boy did those need a lot of ducting to keep the rad at a good temperature. As far as the rad itself, the more i think about it the more i feel like trying to make custom V-Mount, what do you think?

Exhaust: I'm subscribed for this solution as well.

Coilover; I'm not a fan of remote reservoir shocks where the reservoir is any "distance" away from the shock. Don't get sold on lots of "adjustability" either because even the most expensive shocks out there have very little functional variance in the range the shock will operate in for the vast majority of their use (under 3"/sec). Get to know what's important on a shock dyno and pay attention to hysteresis. I know you're looking at a lot of off-the-shelf brands but honestly, you could literally find a set Bilsteins or Konis and have a professional shop rebuild/revalve them to your specs end up with something that performs better than just about anything you can pull off a shelf. (that's a pretty over-arching statement but hyperbole is used to make a point). So if choosing something off the shelf, make sure it's a road racing specific application and you really want to look at shock dynos. Call the manufacturer and ask for this. Don't get sold on marketing, look at the data!

Edit: It looks like Racecomp Engineering has you pointed in the right direction with recommendations. Still get a hold of those shock dyno print outs.

EDIT #2: Consider giving Performance Shock a call in California. They are located at Infineon Raceway. They build shocks for several professional teams, Koni USA defers to them as well and PS is who I use to rebuild my shocks. They can re-valve you want (if it's a rebuildable shock) and send you dyno graphs (and explain those graphs to you!). Their customer service is second to none. http://performanceshock.com/ If were to be dropping the $$$ you are on a new race build I would be calling Performance shock before anyone else.

Say you wanted a Koni 8211, or Ohlins or Penske with a custom valve job. Instead of buying the shock and sending it back out, they can do it all in house send you the shock already re-valved with the print outs. You should consider sending them an email and tell them what spring rate you are planning and corner weight (if you have that).

Hmm yeah that could be an option but we do race on different surfaces which means they might not always have the same settings. Plus, you really got to nail it or at least send them a couple of times which at the end, is going to cost as much as the expensive system. The nice thing with MCS is that he will valve in function of the spring rate you choose and then the adjustement is going to be around that. I also have a good suspension shop around that can revalve to what i want, the guy was an engineer for the Champkart serie and was rebuilding all the shocks of the serie. Still, my decision is not taken, i will take a look at Performance Shock.

LSD, Clutch: KAAZ, OS Giken. http://www.osgiken.net/products.php?product=lsd As for the Final drive.. Consider how you make HP/TQ first and the length of your tracks. If you make broad fat Torque and not very peaky HP and have pretty long tracks then maybe shortening up your Final drive isn't needed. If you get peaky HP (like a centri SC) then staying in that very narrow power peak is important but make sure you don't run out of revs on a long track.

Yeah i think we will start by running the car the way it comes, we'll see if we need a final drive afterwards. As far as the LSD, we'll see how the driver likes the OEM and if he feels the need for an upgrade, i am going straight to the proven Guard, he is expensive but no one comes close in term of quality, performance and service. Not the kind of thing i want to do twice. I see many people use the Cusco cover to fill in more oil, the Greddy is cheaper, anyone tried it?

Brakes, If you don't need to do a lug conversion then don't unless absolutely needed or there's a performance advantage. You should be able to find a suitable brake upgrade without that need. DUCTING. Very important to find ducting. Duct the rear brakes also, due to the weight distribution of this car the rears will be doing plenty of work as well. Keep them cool, replace pads/rotors less often.

Yeah the only reason i wanted to do the conversion is because we might keep our RSX and rent it, we have like 4 sets of wheels for it, the two platforms could share the wheels since they would have the same size and offset. I am pretty decided on the AP sprint so far.

Wheels: looks like you've made up your mind.

Camber plate: Others have already provided good recommendations. No advice here other than make sure they STAY PUT.

Suspension and bushing: Spherical, specially in the rear of this car. There is no other place on this car that it's more needed than the rear. If it has a "range of motion" like a control arm, a spherical bushing is the way to go. Unfortunately I don't know who yet makes them for this car.

Yeah i will need to upgrade pretty much all the bushing and really like spherical on our rsx so it will probably be it again. I haven't shop for that yet

thanks for your time and great help.

04-01-2014, 06:14 PM	#27
puma crew chief Join Date: Mar 2014 Drives: Race car FR-S Location: Quebec Posts: 378 Thanks: 6 Thanked 189 Times in 82 Posts Mentioned: 14 Post(s)	[QUOTE=rice_classic;1641608]Have you already seen this Puma: http://www.scion.ca/scion/en/lifestyle/racing Don't know if that applies to what you're doing but the series you're running in seems to be listed, or at least "was" listed for 2013. Yes, my serie is listed in their and i know we are going to be winning races so the extra money would be welcome, just hope it will still be there in a year or two. My opinions on your build: Engine: Whatever you go with, SC or Turbo, you may want to consider hitting your target WHP with pump gas for 2 reasons: 1) that will significantly reduce racing/operating costs dramatically and your pump gas in Canadia is terrific to begin with. 2) If you do find you need a "bit more room to grow" you can then upgrade a pulley, bump the boost and switch to race fuel. If I can be competitive on 94 octane, I will always choose that option. Yeah 94 is the specified fuel for the SPC but in CTCC, they need to run the Race fuel (can't remember which one) so this is why i don't mind making the big horsepower with race fuel, i'll have to run it anyway. Not sure our pump gas is all that good with the ethanol they put in it now. Radiator: I've been around racing for over 10 years now I don't remember ever seeing a combo radiator/oil cooler being utilized personally. It's a terrific idea for a street car but for a race car it is my opinion that the two systems should function separately. I'm happy to discuss my reasoning separately if that want. Suggestion is get a good aluminum radiator with a proper screen in front of it to protect it from anything that might puncture it. (kind of like the OEM grill does). And get a separate oil cooler. If the oil cooler is in front of the radiator (which is OK) make sure it's flush against the surface of the radiator. If not (if there's a gap) make sure there's a fan on that side of the radiator because the turbulence in the gap while significantly decrease the flow of air through the radiator that is behind the oil cooler. Finally, you can make even a stock radiator perform MUCH better by the use of shrouding. Making sure NO air can flow around, under or above the radiator so that it all must flow through it. HUGE gains in efficiency when doing this. edit: due to the reality of a FMIC as well you should definitely be looking at high-flow fans. Another great way to decrease under hood temps is to shield the header (like the OEM is) with a coating, wrap or actual welded on shielding. Just a thought. Yeah, wrap for the exhaust and ducting for the rad is certainly going to happen, i am used to work around rotaries and helped someone build a RX-8 for racing and boy did those need a lot of ducting to keep the rad at a good temperature. As far as the rad itself, the more i think about it the more i feel like trying to make custom V-Mount, what do you think? Exhaust: I'm subscribed for this solution as well. Coilover; I'm not a fan of remote reservoir shocks where the reservoir is any "distance" away from the shock. Don't get sold on lots of "adjustability" either because even the most expensive shocks out there have very little functional variance in the range the shock will operate in for the vast majority of their use (under 3"/sec). Get to know what's important on a shock dyno and pay attention to hysteresis. I know you're looking at a lot of off-the-shelf brands but honestly, you could literally find a set Bilsteins or Konis and have a professional shop rebuild/revalve them to your specs end up with something that performs better than just about anything you can pull off a shelf. (that's a pretty over-arching statement but hyperbole is used to make a point). So if choosing something off the shelf, make sure it's a road racing specific application and you really want to look at shock dynos. Call the manufacturer and ask for this. Don't get sold on marketing, look at the data! Edit: It looks like Racecomp Engineering has you pointed in the right direction with recommendations. Still get a hold of those shock dyno print outs. EDIT #2: Consider giving Performance Shock a call in California. They are located at Infineon Raceway. They build shocks for several professional teams, Koni USA defers to them as well and PS is who I use to rebuild my shocks. They can re-valve you want (if it's a rebuildable shock) and send you dyno graphs (and explain those graphs to you!). Their customer service is second to none. http://performanceshock.com/ If were to be dropping the $$$ you are on a new race build I would be calling Performance shock before anyone else. Say you wanted a Koni 8211, or Ohlins or Penske with a custom valve job. Instead of buying the shock and sending it back out, they can do it all in house send you the shock already re-valved with the print outs. You should consider sending them an email and tell them what spring rate you are planning and corner weight (if you have that). Hmm yeah that could be an option but we do race on different surfaces which means they might not always have the same settings. Plus, you really got to nail it or at least send them a couple of times which at the end, is going to cost as much as the expensive system. The nice thing with MCS is that he will valve in function of the spring rate you choose and then the adjustement is going to be around that. I also have a good suspension shop around that can revalve to what i want, the guy was an engineer for the Champkart serie and was rebuilding all the shocks of the serie. Still, my decision is not taken, i will take a look at Performance Shock. LSD, Clutch: KAAZ, OS Giken. http://www.osgiken.net/products.php?product=lsd As for the Final drive.. Consider how you make HP/TQ first and the length of your tracks. If you make broad fat Torque and not very peaky HP and have pretty long tracks then maybe shortening up your Final drive isn't needed. If you get peaky HP (like a centri SC) then staying in that very narrow power peak is important but make sure you don't run out of revs on a long track. Yeah i think we will start by running the car the way it comes, we'll see if we need a final drive afterwards. As far as the LSD, we'll see how the driver likes the OEM and if he feels the need for an upgrade, i am going straight to the proven Guard, he is expensive but no one comes close in term of quality, performance and service. Not the kind of thing i want to do twice. I see many people use the Cusco cover to fill in more oil, the Greddy is cheaper, anyone tried it? Brakes, If you don't need to do a lug conversion then don't unless absolutely needed or there's a performance advantage. You should be able to find a suitable brake upgrade without that need. DUCTING. Very important to find ducting. Duct the rear brakes also, due to the weight distribution of this car the rears will be doing plenty of work as well. Keep them cool, replace pads/rotors less often. Yeah the only reason i wanted to do the conversion is because we might keep our RSX and rent it, we have like 4 sets of wheels for it, the two platforms could share the wheels since they would have the same size and offset. I am pretty decided on the AP sprint so far. Wheels: looks like you've made up your mind. Camber plate: Others have already provided good recommendations. No advice here other than make sure they STAY PUT. Suspension and bushing: Spherical, specially in the rear of this car. There is no other place on this car that it's more needed than the rear. If it has a "range of motion" like a control arm, a spherical bushing is the way to go. Unfortunately I don't know who yet makes them for this car. Yeah i will need to upgrade pretty much all the bushing and really like spherical on our rsx so it will probably be it again. I haven't shop for that yet thanks for your time and great help.