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Old 12-07-2013, 03:08 AM   #101
go2brz
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited in DGM
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Conclusion, I wouldn't say it is the end for the BRZ. After the contract is served, the car is owned by Subaru, and the engine is owned by Toyota. Subaru can choose to keep the car, or kill it. Toyota can choose to keep the engine or kill it. Tada San is developing his own....so what may happen could be
I have neither read or heard anything about Subaru giving up thier engine, to get DI. and it would not be an equitable deal for Subaru. Toyota asked for a joint sports car and according to all printed reports, they jumped at the last design plan that Subaru developed and Toyota helped them greatly in bringing it to fruition. The DI was Toyota's contribution to the engine which helped make a 2.0L put out 200HP. I doubt very seriously that you will find a Subaru boxer engine in any future Toyota that is not made in a Subaru factory. Toyota only owns a small portion of the Fuji Heavy industries. Tada can kill the engine for any Toyota car, but he cannot "kill" this engine for Subaru as it is their proprietary design simply with another company's DI technology. Saying that Toyota owns this engine, is like saying that Volkswagen owns the Porsche boxer engine and can put it in any car they want (That will never happen even though VW controls Porsche). Toyota got this car with a minimum of expenditure compared to most startup sports car projects. Toyota controls Subaru no more than GM did before them. But GM's plan to increase Subaru production was simply to re-badge a couple models and make them SAAB's in name only. Subaru "killed" that deal with GM (bought the stock back) because of their incompetence, and then the Japanese government asked Toyota to replace that investment. It was a smart move for Toyota, but Subaru and Toyota are miles apart from being "one big company" Toyota has as much money involved in Tesla, but they are not "one" company. They simply share some technology which for Toyota is high tech lithium battery technology, as they invested heavily in Nickel Cad for their hybrid cars. (Which are fast becoming obsolete for Hybrids) Tesla gets help in areas that they are weak in, like production quality along with R&D sharing. Plus having Toyota as an investor made them seem as a "safer" bet for investors, not as a threat to Tesla independence as a company. Toyota now has the means to develop thier Lithium-Ion battery program at a faster rate than before the investment.

I cannot see Toyota/Scion FT-86/FRS with any different engine than the BRZ will have. The car is designed for a boxer engine. The car was made from the beginning to be able to be profitable at lower production than most models, by both companies selling them. They have no plans or need to produce more than 100,00 units for the entire world in one year. They are already profitable somewhat (certainly not a loss) and they have not yet reached peak production planned.

If Toyota wants to add another sports car that offers more, it will be hard to sell it as a Scion as the price will be out of the "Scion" target pricing. Let them make a new Supra in the 50-60K range like the new Alfa 4C or the Porsche Cayman. It should not threaten the need for Scion to have an affordable sports car like the FRS.

This car has the potential to be a long term success even if sold at low numbers, much like the Miata has done for quite a while. I see no reason for this car to go away anytime soon even if it does end up being only a Subaru. And the new BRZ based Sport Crossover concept (A BRZ "shooting brake) just shown in Tokyo last week, could be a very nice complement to the BRZ that will help Subaru to maintain the factory as profitable if Toyota does pull out. And I really cannot see any reason for them to want to pull out unless they are pulling the plug on Scion and would rather have a higher priced sports car for the Toyota brand. But to have a big engine it will be taxed heavily in all major markets for the car as most nations have an escalating tax on cars as the engine gets larger than a 2.0 liter raising the sticker price quite a lot. Just price a 3.5 liter in Europe or Japan versus the same car with a 2.0L engine. Quite a lot to pay, so most cars are 2.0L or less. That is one of the great selling points of this car worldwide for Toyota, and to a lesser degree Subaru as well (Subaru's world market is many less countries than Toyota). It has no extra taxes than any economy sedan or coupe in these countries. So the 2.0L is here to stay. Their are some countries where a 2.5 would be an affordable upgrade, so something like having two engine choices could be a future possiblity.

Seems like this car is far from "doomed" Is it perfect? No. But for the money it is the most overall fun car to drive on the market today as just about every owner on this forum has confirmed. As of right now you have to spend twice to three times a much to get a Cayman with just a few to several more options. The BRZ/FRS actually hits it's cost and demographics target very well. Yes, they can add a higher end version with more power and and a true STI/TRD perfromance upgrade. But the base 2.0L version at a low base price will still have to be available or this car will have trouble selling in the numbers they have planned to make it profitable. If the WRX/STI was not based on the Impreza platform, it would not exist. This is a marriage of convenience that if managed properly can be a great thing for both companies for years to come.

Last edited by go2brz; 12-07-2013 at 03:42 AM.
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