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Crawford Air-Oil Separator Problem: Lots of Oil in Intake
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Yesterday I did a bit of disassembly of my HKS supercharger and found such a wonderful picture.
That looks exactly like what I wanted to avoid by installing a Crawford AOS instead of Cusco AOS (a real catch can) which I had previously. It was for the PCV line only but drainable. Knowing that people recommend that for boosted applications, I installed a Boomba check-valve on the PCV line, as you can see – the red one in the middle, to prevent pressure from the manifold to enter into the can and then the engine. The result looks far from satisfying. I started to ask questions (probably a bit too late – after spending $400 on this device, but still): how the caught oil actually gets back to the engine? Simple answer is gravity which should do the job. However, the PCV valve is a check valve itself and it prevents anything from entering back into the block. This was tested empirically (and resulted in tasting some engine oil in my mouth): I wasn’t able to blow any air into the engine block via the PCV hose (the one on the left, the stock one) but you can easily suck it out from there. So, I just don't understand how the oil could escape the can other than via the right ventilation line – the uppermost of the 4 holes on the can, which goes directly to the intake right after the intake box and then all this goes to the SC, intercooler and right to the throttle body... You can see on the pics how it looks (and I don’t even want to imagine how much of this dirty oil is in the intercooler). I'd be happy to hear that I'm wrong and this AOS is a great magical device but looks like I need a catch can which keeps the caught oil in it and better vent the gases to the atmosphere to make sure nothing goes to the intake... Suggestions and advices welcome! Thanks for reading. |
Tha Crawford AOS will not work on a boosted application without a check valve. And even then, it's dicey. That whole can is a terribly bad effing design.
If you join the 2 crankcase lines into the same cavity and apply boost... Either way, you are correct about transferring oil back thru the PCV, it will not work. If you want to keep your PCV system intact and have a working catch can, you need 2, or if you want a "maintenance-free" option, the AVO can drains to a modified oil cap, and back to the engine that way. I did not opt for that and have no idea if it works as advertised. |
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Thanks for reply! I'm more than happy to do maintenance! I'd also love to get a good easy-to-install vent-to-atmosphere option and the only car-specific that I found is AVO dual tank system. However, from 1 or 2 pics that I found, it looks like those 2 cans are still interconnected by a hose and only one of them is venting to the atmosphere which contradicts to what you are saying (and I tend to agree with) - better to have the 2 lines and 2 cavities separately. What setup are you running/can recommend as a replacement for me? |
I could make you one of our dual can VTA set ups from our turbo kit if it's something that might work for you?
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps476b91be.jpg |
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I personally use the RacerX can, which is the same way; 2 completely independent catch cans in the same housing. I setup drain lines with ball valves so I can drain them from under the car. It comes with those now. My setup works great, but if I were to do it again, ... Well actually I wouldn't change anything. The maintenance is virtually zero. Just draining little dribbles out of the can every once in a while... Intake is clean. Ah, that said, examining the Crawford can further, it occurs to me that it (should) work as advertised it you replace the original PCV valve into the block with a plain old straight-through NPT fitting, thereby relocating the PCV check valve to the snout of the can. That way, it would actually drain to the block, and the check valve at the "snout" (where you have it right now) makes the valve at the block redundant. That is, of course, provided that its "swirl pot" design actually separates any oil at all. Given that I doubt that is the case, I bet you'd still end up with oil in the intake... But it may be worth a try. |
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Have you checked your intercooler for possible oil contamination
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Current setting you have will be pushing boost into engine crankcase via intake manifold, this AOS is designed for NA cars and needs to be modifed to be run for boosted applications, otherwise you pressurize the can. The mod basically turns it into a a poor mans dual catch can type setup. You really need two independent cans to do it properly, that being said i'm running this AOS on my turbo setup. I blocked the short hose that goes from can to intake manifold and replaced the check valve on the back of the block with a regular barb fitting(that check valve only opens under vacuum). Its not ideal but it works.
*Edited looks like they put a one way valve ( the red piece) to stop what i mentioned from happening, maybe that failed? http://i.imgur.com/GImwiNA.jpg?1 If you are after a VTA can, I have a brand new Full Blown VTA catch can that I fit then removed a few days later during my turbo build ( its never been run). I had to switch to a recirculated system in order to get my build engineered. Willing to let it got for $100 US + shipping ( im in aus, shipping wouldn't be more than 30 US) let me know sir |
Yes, I also came to the conclusion that this thing is for NA only, at least it is harmless in this case. However, Crawford claims that this AOS if OK for boosted applications either, that they run it on their race car and it works fine even without the check-valve! Sounds either like magic or like BS because the key question: "Where the caught oil goes, via which tube?" Remains unanswered.
The red thing is Boomba check valve which I added myself (thanks for FT-86 SpeedFactory who bought it specially for me and included into shipment of other parts). I had to cut about 1 cm of the outlet tube of the AOS to fit it into the short hose between the can and the intake manifold). It works fine - requires very little effort to pass air into right direction and blocks attempts to blow anything into the opposite direction (from the manifold). Thanks for the offer - I'll consider it. However, I want a dual catch can for both lines, like the one which MAPerformance offers. Alternatively I'm thinking about Radium dual cans. Quote:
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I run dual Radiums in my car Love them!!!!!
Drivers side vented to Atmosphere Passenger side factory hook up Absolutely zero oiling issues |
WATCHING
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So, after some investigation I came to the conclusion that I need a decent vent-to-atmosphere catch can. Ideally dual catch can so that to be able to define from which port all this oil is coming from.
The best solution which I found so far is @MAPerformance dual can: http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps476b91be.jpg However, it seems that its mounting points are exactly the same as those which are used to mount AT harness in my AT GT86, so it not AT-compatible unfortunately, at least not with the standard mounting bracket. If someone could confirm/dismiss this assumption - that would be really helpful. The next candidate is @AVOturboworld dual breather tank: http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/medi...breather-6.jpg However, its desing puzzles me. Why acually they made two cans interconnected one after another? As the result the first one is used just an intermediary which mixes air from both breathing lines and then air goes to the 2nd one with the filter. Also, I don't understand whether it's possible to drain the cans without dismounting (although it's easy and not a problem). Strange construction with unclear purpose but very comfortable mounting and looks like workable solution. The third candidate is @Element Tuning Competition Catch Can System: http://www.elementtuning.com/images/...%20Can%20b.jpg http://elementtuning.com/store/#!/El...ategory=439244 Which is a single can with simple and understandable desing but I'm not sure about FRS/BRZ-specific mounting... No one is ideal but still I need to choose one. What would be you recommendation guys? Any other suggestions are appreciated! |
Add W1 catch can i what i use. Its baffled, can be used as a closed loop or vent to atmosphere. Add another $10 in hoses and clamps, and your in business. I use this on the driver side from the pcv valve to intake, works very well and catches alot of oil.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ADD-W1-Black...3D141097569813 |
by the sound of things, radium would suit your needs
http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/radi...l#.VnHQY0p96Uk Get the tap attachment so you can drain it without removing the can. or Full blown http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/full...l#.VnHQTUp96Uk |
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Raidum is not a VTA-type can, although a very high quality product. It also uses the same holes for mounting which are already occupied by Grimmspeed hood struts in my car :) Fullblown is good but doesn't work for me either since I have a small Shorai battery on PTuning mounting kit while the FB can needs a standard size battery tie-down for mounting. |
Im running radium dual catchcan setup with the pcv side modified to vent to atmosphere
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Stay away from Crawford engineering products. Especially due to ZERO customer help especially to an Army member for the blowing his FA20 engine with this catch can. The engine was fully built with crawfords internals and its sleeved too, but it had the same issues shown here with our supercharged frs that began the post.
They, Crawford, knew and were/ are aware of this issue and have done nothing to conduct a recall. It is simple, they won't pick up the tab. I have evidence of them stating all this. Email, videos, text, and recorded conference phone conversation with their own consultant that lead me to: And they talked me into getting up to two oil restrictors for the turbo. Enough said why, but the engine pushes oil all the way through the tail pipe even with the refreshed turbo, and its two restrictors. It is expected that the rings or the valve seal are out, but all of you knows what this means, pull the engine out and rebuild it again. Getting ready to post all of this evidence to the public and once the leak down test its done by a mechanic the report will be sent to an attorney. After this a box with all of its parts will be sent to them with a trojan box of condoms. You figure out the rest. And in addition to this, if this block was not sleeved by Dan Benson itll be sent to Suba Performance/ Boost Creep in Denver with another box of condoms as they ripped this man. They left 4 different spark plugs and a bad tune on this build and it detonated, just to say the least. |
Neal Grabowski
to*me Jul 28 Details Im available today, this weekend or Monday. Should not take long. Please have the decision maker on the phone. Thanks and looking forward to being on the same *page |
More to come.
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Crawford engineering catch can blows engine
FRS/BRZ Catch can and ventilation
Inbox Hi Guys I have your catch can set up. I was wondering about the crankcase pressures, with a FI setup. Would I bee needing to vent the crankcase to ... T Technical Well, we have not sold a catch can for about 15 years now so I must assume you are speaking of our Air Oil Separator. If so then all our AOS are de... AOS of course. So It would not need to be ventilated for NA? how about for FI? Another question regarding the Crawford internals (Piston/ con/rod).... T Technical The tuner can pull more power / torque out of a motor with longer rods but you can still use the same tune, that said our pistons usually have a lo... Hi Dear Crawford, Thanks for this information. The connection between the AOS and the intake manifold is not right, is it? or is ok to load the cra... T Technical Hello T, I have no idea if your AOS installation was done correctly as you have not sent me any photos of it. That said, it is not ok to load th... The instructions to install the AOS states to connect the intake manifold to the AOS. Here is the "boost leak". The boost comes out from the intake... In addition to all this, as the AOS is connected, the connection from the AOS to the intake pipe to air filter- hose connected in front of the comp... Hi CP Do you need any videos and pictures of the damages? Dear Crawford, Please let me know if we can resolve this here. If not I'll get an attorney. T Technical If you would like me to help you find out what was done wrong during the installation process then some photos of how our AOS was connected would b... It is easy install and Suba performance installed it, therefore, the install should've been installed properly. Ill be sending images of it soon. T... T Technical Thank you, I am eager to see the photos so we can assist you. Hi guys you'll be receiving a bunch of emails with receipts invoices and so forth to pile up the whole story. The reason I mention Enjuku is becaus... T Technical Hello guys, Sending me the emails showing the damage done to your motor by the different shops and tuners that have worked on your car does not hel... The installation is correct I'll send the pictures tomorrow and video starting. Showing oil level, showing no dripping oil from anywhere and markin... 7 min and smoking its fouling baddly. On Jul 27, 2017 5:54 PM, wrote: > > 7 min and smoking its fouling baddly. > > > On Jul 26, 2017 Hi My kids took video of the test. I don't think it can do a road test without calling attention from "EPA". My solidarity on this. I know that the... T Technical to*me,*Neal,*Technical Jul 28 Details Thanks for the effort guys, but a video of the engine running is of no benefit to finding out if the AOS is connected correctly or not. The silicone on the valve cover fixing the leak in that spot is totally unrelated to the way the AOS is connected and also has no benefit to us, both of these issues need to be addressed with the person or shop responsible for installing that valve cover incorrectly and whatever else was done to cause the massive amount of oil entering your exhaust system. Again, thanks for the effort. Crawford Performance 622 Airport Rd. Oceanside, CA 92058 P: (760) 631-2927 F: (760) 439-2937 |
FRS/BRZ Catch can and ventilation
Inbox ja ca Hi Guys I have your catch can set up. I was wondering about the crankcase pressures, with a FI setup. Would I bee needing to vent the crankcase to ... T Technical technical@crawfordperformance.com Hide details To: j Date: September 5, 2016, 1:26 PM Well, we have not sold a catch can for about 15 years now so I must assume you are speaking of our Air Oil Separator. If so then all our AOS are designed and engineered to function correctly on a NA engine as well as an FI engine. We also never vent our AOS to atmosphere for many reasons and one of the main ones is your crankcase needs a vacuum pulled on it to suck out the fumes. If not then the inside of your crankcase is stagnant and just fills up with fuel vapors which contaminate the oil after a while. * Take care and thanks for choosing Crawford * Crawford Performance 622 Airport Rd. Oceanside, CA 92058 P: (760) 631-2927 F: (760) 439-2937 FB:*facebook.com/CrawfordPerformance * From:* Sent:*Monday, September 05, 2016 11:06 AM To:*Technical Subject:*FRS/BRZ Catch can and ventilation |
More to come
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1: Your posts on this are incredibly difficult to read. From what you have posted I can't see how you are blaming Crawford.
2: Crawford asks for pictures and you just tell them it was installed correctly because some shop did it. Then you send them receipts for engine damage and videos of your car smoking? What do you think they are going to do with that? |
'Tuner A, you suck. My motor exploded. Took it to Tuner B and he said the tune was off. Here are receipts of my purchase of ECU tuning from Tuner B. He is a tuner so he tuned the car right." Stay tuned for more empirical proof.
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Same deal with tuners as Amputechture explains. Also the reading dificulties are due to the pastes from the email traffic and not all of the contents transfered. However it definitely shows the communication. |
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Hey Efferalgan and all
The effects on valve covers, crank case, turbo drain, and valve seals from Crawford AOS is cofirmed. Have a very low mileage on a build engine and the bore scope clearly shows the leak from the valve seal. Too soon for oem seals to lose their seal capabilities. There are other few notes and images of the leak from the valve cover when it was pressurized by the use of the AOS. The engine had as much oil as the HKS FRS system as mentioned above too. There's premature ware and its repair should be covered by Crawford performance Engineering. BTW What would you do if the engine has Crawford's forged internals knowing that this has happened with the AOS? What would you do with the internals? Send all back to Crawford and redo the engine with other brand? |
I know this is an old thread but I was curious if there were more people with this problem on NA cars. I have the crawford AOS and recently checked on the system while cleaning my throttle body. I found that there was a small amount of oil in the line that goes to the intake tube. I don't really know how this could be happening so if anyone has some info it would be much appreciated!
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This is the correct assessment for several of Crawford's products. Best to just avoid them all together. |
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If this works for any the better... Here's what making news and will more likely open eyes ears and the breathing that these fa20 engine needs in order to function correctly that is including natural aspirated. It'll begin with the yardstick, comparing to a V8 breathing ports. None of these v or in line engines have, like the fa20, a tube on their oil pan connected via an o ring that leads to a cavity with some baffles to help oil separate before it reaches to a PCV valve such as the fa20. Oops too late oil went through the intake. Therefore it yields to the crankcase ventilation, CCV, section of the fa20 however is more like a V8 typical breathing scenario. So that works specially the crankcase ventilation section that is neighbor to the oil filler cap of the fa20 that it can be very useful to generate A TRUELY GOOD ventilation and/or a spot where it can drain back oil. On the opposite end there is that PCV valve but that's the tip of the iceberg. Why? It Is the small sissy-cavity that lies underneath the PCV valve of the fa20. And if it is a an opportunity to explain that it might be able to reverse the use of a p c v so be it. It will ask, the engine itself to please reverse that pcv over to the front and the crankcase from the rear of the block because the only thing that keeps us from improving the PCV would be the Bubbling. if we vent the pcv crankcase ventilation, So having high vacuum at the crankcase ventilation on the front of the block the Hindus ventilation coming from the bottom of the oil pan via the pcv route, itll be exactly just like blowing through the straw of a Coca-Cola bottle, but the opposite itll have the oil to move from the straw up the separator making its way past the pcv valve and flooding the intake with oil. Bubbles in the oil to the point where the pick up tube cavitate that's what is unabling the use the front of the ventilation breather of the fa20? unlessssss The remove those rubber washers between the oil pan and the girddle. Agreed? If no please do provide insight please. And Nah there is no enough force to generate bubbles being disconnected. So it well could be that oil pan baffle plates may have been created eliminates the rubber washers. i might find it. Lmk which one does. Thank you in advanced. Nahhh the issue is the Tunnel that connects left and right valve cavities in the pcv oil separator behind the block, but would it hurt the engine to eliminate these rubber washers? Or is it safe to operate this engine with a driled hole on the oil pan pcv oil separator tube aka straw. Acting Just like a craked straw while drinking coca cola. Lets only air through, thus, the gasses for the pcv! Serves the purpose right. It might work i believe so. Anyone? The drainage now will be able to be free from suction in that part of the oil pan. Sure... there is that much oil coming down from the separators that there aren't actually needed for these rubber washers? Anywho... ...Making it is difficult for the oil to be sucked up through the Breather called the PCV in this proposed case. So the positive ventilation can truely take place with a lot less oil mist. Logically oriented. Simply at this point it will be great to have someone here that Homes shops and races/experience enough and all of that good stuff, perhaps if that person could help clarify and confirm this it will be absolutely great. Furthermore, follow that cavity down until it meets the O-ring ring at the oil pan then the problem goes further down at the very bottom of the oil pan that little hole connects the PCV valve at the top making it a long straw with a stretch in the middle waiting for vacuum to suck up all the oil through the PCV at the same moment where the restricted left and right tunnel fills with the high speed gasses tries to merge into the tiny ass pcv hole, just like a Coca-Cola drink and a straw. As a reason why they have on the STIs PCV cavity so big that is almost twice as big. Well it is also how the breathing tales take place on the sti valve covers, there are two breathers on each side, not one small hole on the back of each valve covers like the fa20 ! And this is a small tunnel that meets in the pcv hole. There are few ideas here..add a couple of breather tubes on those valve covers and or what i came up with its similar. So in order to create some flow of gases all you need the high pressure and another along with a low pressure one meaning vacuum on vacuum terms. This creates gas movement. Just hold on to this thought. So let's say that you have accumulated so much oil like it does happen a lot in these catch cans and there is one in particular that is dirtier than the other and that kind of help us understand how is the PCV is acting up that's is burping and in some or many cases oil is being sucked up by adding vacuum generated at the intake or high source of vaccum. And dont forget, that sucking up vacuum up this straw its or is it not lowering oil level near the pick up tube entrance? Supposedly the "straw", the tubes of the oil pan, were added to "use the pick up tube suction force to invite the oil down from the pcv straw and the ccv better vented straw. This is an oxymoron. One side is saying hey I'm inviting you to come over oil so I can put you through the oil pump and then the other one says wait a minute I've been sucked up by vacuum I'll be back later. And a cause for oil level to drop, drop in preassure too! I have test driven and seen this at a stop light comig from a 35mph short cruise. It has the one way check valve keep in mind this for Force induction at the intake sourcing from intake manifold . So guess what's needed what's needed is that huge tank with machined the PCV threads to 3/4 of an inch pipe so you can rest assured that there is no static energy enough to keep the oil together while is being sucked up into the intake or through the vacuum lines. So the s t i a y PCV hose look into it. Well this case with the fa20 one must have to increase in proportion to the small air oil separator it has and generate that additional volume outside. That way when it burps it burps the oil into a huge volume but the drainage now being 3/4 of an inch pipe thread oil won't have a chance to reach up to the hose that it's connected either to your Inlet or intake manifold. Yep scratch your heads because the next one will be the crankcase ventilation which I believe that this is the actuall and only ventilation that is engine has and is reliable. The pcv chamber sees, that i remember and besides the hole in the bottom-oil pan straw, it sees the chamber in the passenger side valve side cavity( it is true its however it is a tunnel from left to the right rear section of said valve cover cavities that meets in the middle or the PCV (3/8bsp small ass hole); and, that is also pen but at the timing cover volume). And then, BOTH bankS ARE Directly connected to the timing cover. So why this small pcv cavity was plaNTEd and designed this way? Gas flow from front to back or back to front? So if you know both head valve cavities are open to the oil filler cap, then, you know that the crankcase ventilation plate has a hole (suspended in air), therefore it is venting both heads and crank at the same time to include the oil pan surface. Imagine the ccv pulling gases faster? The rear pcv, being open-free free flow(let air in this way instead-"breath" it would let air in and bubbles in the oil pan generated ? and out the ccv along with the blow by acting as the pcv?. This would be the essence of the ventilation process. Or not? It only makes sense that if you have an open chamber to the timing cover on both valvetrains then that's your main source for venting gases. On top of that that section is also venting the oil pan area sorry for the redundancy. Well it seems like there's a change paradigm in terms of ventilating who. It only makes sense sense to eliminate oil from here the intake system so why Plumb that into the intake or use a high vacuum Source 2 put that part of the engine like subaru? Itll be awesome to vent it? Or at least use the inlet or less vacumm source for it? And so the CCV... use the vacuum to assist the engines need for relief it self. Its cleaner than the burping small-limited-oil vomit-prone-nonsense air/oil separator found under the pcv. Utilize the STI AY PCV hose as yardstick and expand the idea to the small separator and the tiny holes from each valve coversthe fa20 has and bring that needed volume up and drain back through the same orifice!!! Btw there is an obstacle, its the pcv! Blocking oil from draining back into the chamber. Sarcastically implying, to relocate the valve in a way that yields to and open for the oil to return back through the "Hororifice", thus a magical large one though. Set the "pc "valve if wanted, up and away, SEE the AY PCV to establish the idea. Simply there is to much vacuum inside the tunnel that connects the valve cover cavities that ends in pulling the oil from the "straw" in the oil pan, pcv side. This fa20 has an oem engineered oil burning mechanism masked over as a pcv of the fa20. An EPA conflict. This is not a lightly find... The fa20 pcv connection between the left and right valve covers is tooooooo small even if at its NA configuration. These two, the ccv and pcv needs to be re evaluated. As the pcv in this thing should be letting fresh air in and the ccv be the pcv sucking or supplying gasses into the manifold. Ensure the fuel trims are done. One more, why a mechanical vacuum pump that is only for the break booster ? (AT tranny) thinking this pump uses oil wouldn't one logic conclusion that its overwhelming the drainage via the small ass air oil separator? I already know that im being sarcastic and this cavity/pcv is just a top and bottom and a restricted connecting tunnel to the rear of each valve covers. Anyways this pump is present, but i believe that is not necessarily required to operate the AT transmission. Unless you know otherwise. Nope it is not needed. Second wouldn't do any difference to the AT tranny to just switch the break booster to a normal intake vacuum source? Third if is ok to leave the pump, would it be usefull for other vacuum needs? Such as fa20 can run super low compresion and seal those rings and run the bejesus out of the turbo 30psi plus? Nope just toss this vacuum pump away. Also do a vacuum flow test... Plumb a wet/dry vacuum cleaner into the pcv and try to measure the amount of oil that will come out. And do the same for the ccv, no oil right?. Additionally Pay attention to the effort of the vacuum cleaner on each one. If you can try to measure the vaccum efforts to suck per each of the said sides, one for pcv and the other of the other ccv side. In another note, the fa20s brother, the ej20 has the exact same deal with its oil pan and the tube found in the ej20 oil pan. Maybe is not exactly the same because K..B manufacturer fabricates the ej20s oil pan eliminating the direct connection of the oil pan to the rear AOS of the ej20. This IS a good flag for the fa20. As the ej20 engine oil pan AOS to oil pan connection is not mechanicaly needed and serves as yardstick for the fa20. In conclusion, unless you know otherwise, the fa20 like the ej20 oil sump "draining tubes " are not providing anything to the engines operation. However by having these tubes connected to the AOSs itll increase the risk of filling up with oil the AOS that is linked to the PCV. These must be disconnected from the oil pan to provide a true free of oil ventilation (engine cross ventilation ). My wish list: Motec, Hollinger paddleshift and an oil cooler and offers welcome. Cachaho Take care out |
FA20 like its brother EJ20 the oil pan needs correction and a legal suit
https://youtu.be/Y8zGfvvln2o
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https://youtu.be/Y8zGfvvln2o |
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