Best FI recipe for an AT, DD, Ambient Temp upto 58 C
 

Dears,

I read a lot of articles about FI TC/SC, some useful info about DD solutions etc...

But I couldn't find a topic that fully specific for my needs, I can sum up my requirements in the following points/questions.

1- My car is a Daily Driver and I want to maintain it as a practical DD, with an extra oomph

2- SC or TC? I like Low-Mid Range torque (My other car has an LS2 V8), I'm still not used to our high revving engine and I feel pissed off when I don't find enough torque to bypass a v6 Toyota Camry/ I know I need more power but I'm worried about FI with a high compression engine... Is it better to rebuild it with HKS 2.1L positive displacement lower compression kit?

3- Where I live heat is scorching high, Really high, i.e. ambient temp. easily reaches to an insane near 60 Degrees Celsius, The engine at OEM specs feels at the borders of its cooling capabilities (Gut Feeling, no Measurements). I considered to cool all (Engine/Engine oil (Pump or passive pressure?)/ AT Transmission (Pump or passive pressure?) Oil -I read somewhere that AT comes with its own OEM cooling solution is that true? / Diff Cooling) what is the real necessity among those?

4- How much RWHP do I need to achieve a 0-100kmh 0-62Mph in less than 5 seconds?

5- Do I need a new brake kit to control the excessive power? or simply a better pads + slotted DBA rotors will be enough? (people drive like freaking hooligans where I reside, sudden braking is expected way more often compared to the rest parts of the world.)

6- It is said that the best 1st upgrade is a better set of wheels/tires.
Is that where I should start?

7- My cars is an AT (Don't Shoot me:iono:) I'm not good at driving MT. should I consider SSC stage 2.0 valve body upgrade? Clutch set? new Torque Converter? (Long term durability is my aim more than pure performance, it's AT at the end of the day)/ I noticed some rpm dip when I brake at low speeds, is it a Torque converter issue?

Appreciate your feedback to as much points as possible, if your answer is put in a matching numbered points it will be more appreciated an helpful :thumbsup:
Many thanks in advance for your contributions.

PS: Excuse my English its a 2nd language to me.

Don't worry about your English, it was very well written.

Automatic transmission GT86's have ~7 second 0-60 time. To get to a 5 seconds, you can either drop weight or add power (or a combination of both).

By only adding power, you will need ~500 hp (at the flywheel). By only dropping weight, you will need to to lose ~1700 lbs (on a 2800 lbs car).

The weight target is unrealistic. Even Anthony hasn't gotten close to that (LINK). You can probably lose ~200 lbs without losing much comfort or functionality. At that weight, you would still need 475 hp.

At that power level, some transformation will be required. Cooling system upgrades (radiator, oil, and transmission fluid coolers) are recommended. Fuel system ugprades (pump and injectors) will be needed. Drive shafts and axles might be needed too.

Some supercharger kits can get you there (high flow and small pulley types). There are plenty of medium-sized turbochargers that will meet your goals too.

For E85, you shouldn't need to rebuild the engine internals... but for pump gas it's likely to be necessary. The transmission itself should be OK, but it will wear faster. Upgrading the valve bodies and torque converter might be needed eventually. Fluid changes will be more frequent for both.

get a 4.88 Final Drive gearset and an OFT
 

If you're not concerned with MPG, and you can't get good MPG's with a turbo or supercharger, then get a 4.88 Final Drive gearset for your differential. I have an AT and I had a 4.88 FD installed. It was fun, and it covered up the deficiencies of a poor tune. But, I NEED to be able to get 30 MPG. I drive all over the Portland/Vancouver area, up to 100 miles per day at times. I settled for a 4.30 FD, but would be happier with a 4.55. Since then I've worked on my tune and my car is more fun to drive now, and still gets 30 MPG. I also have the Phantom Electric Supercharger. I still remember when I had my 4.88 and I launched from a stop light in the right lane ends lane. I spun tires in the first 3 gears before the traction control even tried to rein things in, and by that time i was already past everyone else.

To get your Car under 5s you will have to chance a shitload of things.:confused0068:

1. 4,88 Final Drive
2. Forced Induction - HKS 2.1 Kit with V3 SC is an Option and have a look at the ACE Header
3. Way better Cooling for Everything, Water, AT, Diff, Intercooler
4. Torque Converter
5. Brakes - i would recommed Stoptech
6. Much better Tires and Rims to fit the Brakes

At least you dont have to worry about MPGs - Fuel is stupid cheap where you live.:thumbup:

With that arbitrary target you're probably better off with a V8 swap, although I don't think anybody has done an Automatic V8 swap into this car, really only a few have been swapped at all. However cramming big engines into small cars is not a revolutionary formula, I'd think this was a lower risk (although higher cost) than turboing the FA20 up over 400hp.

Thanks for the encouragement :)


1- Weight reduction :( I bought this car because of its a light weight

2- One thing I cannot comprehend here, Why is it so difficult to reach to 0-60 in 5s? when heavier cars i.e.. Nissan 370Z that weighs 1450-1500KG and around 337 BHP have a 0-60 around 5s mark !!

3- As for the available fuel we have 91 Octane and 95 Octane fuel only... I use the "95" one. No option for the E85 unfortunately.

4- About the AT transmission I think it is bloody expensive (Same as Lexus IS/GS AT) that's why I want to be very careful, are you sure (Relatively) that it'll be fine around say 300-350WHP



I didn't understand your first sentence... :bonk:
What would be the top speed with FG of 4.88/4.55?
I thought Electric SC are a Urban Myth :D


1- Any suggested brands? What would be the Top Speed?
2- I was thinking about the insanely expensive Cosworth Stage 2.3 (It costs 15K USD to be installed and calibrated by a Cosworth Authorized Dealer at Bahrain) the problem is for all that money I will be getting a puny 80bhp... not whp!
3- For the coolers I was thinking to go all Mishimoto!
4- Excuse my ignorance I saw a video that explains how Torque Converter works but I didn't under stand how changing to high stall one will help and what negative effects it'll have on a DD car.
5-6- Clear


I'd like to sincerely thank you all for your time to post your feedback.

I still wish to know more, specially regarding how to cope with the excessive heat. And always bear in mind maintaining the daily drive-ablity (How ever that is spelled)

Kind Regards

There is no replacement for displacement.

You'll be hitting a fuel limitation quickly, whereas a larger engine does not.

I would suggest you consider a V8 swap; this is the most realistic option for your goals.

Is it that difficult to run the FA20 cool in such a harsh and hot environment?
I already have another car that weighs almost 2 tons with an LS2 6.0L (ME market - Chevrolet Caprice (A re-Badged Holden WM Caprice))... A great and (torque)y engine that I've been driving for the last 7 years...

I bought my Toyota 86 because I wanted a (2 Adults + 2 kids) fun and sporty car for short in-city trips... and the Caprice is for long distances cruises...

I'm extremely happy with the unsurpassed road feel and control I have with the 86, But I'm finding it hard to adapt to the lack of power (Relatively Speaking) specially in the lower and med range...

Appreciate your discussion and reply.

Kind Regards

Same reply given to strat61caster above :)

Best FI recipe for an AT, DD, Ambient Temp upto 58 C
 

I suggest edelbrock SC

I have the innovate and I see that edelbrock have a better package.

I am located in J town and no problems so far.



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Spencer fabrication turbo kit

Displacement = torque

Forced induction = artificial displacement

Some crude math: a 2L with 29psi boost will make roughly the same torqueas a 6L naturally aspirated. However, the work is being done by a larger amount of engine in the 6L, so the stress is much lower.

This is not a heat issue, but rather an output and power delivery issue.

To put it in perspective, getting 500hp out of a FA20 (2.0L) has the same relative stress as getting 1300hp out of a Lamborghini Huracan (5.2L). Or, if you want a more common example, 750hp out of a 2JZ (3.0L).

One thing those cars have in common: none of them are getting that output on the fuel you're trying to use.

Chat with @Lunatic about his 4.88 FD. He drives mostly in town and on the track, and just the FD shaved 1 second off his 0-60 time. Definitely install more cooling, and maybe a vented hood, if you're going turbo. Supercharging will keep the under-hood temps lower, and give more low-end torque. I would also recommend the Nameless long-tube header as well for better low and mid-range power.

Depends on your budget and how crazy you want to get. If budget isn't a problem and registering modified cars isn't a problem in KSA then I'd ship your car over to EKanoo in Bahrain for a 2JZ swap. Only downside is that it'll cost you about the same as you paid for your car. ;)

Lowest budget option would be the final drive gear swap. 4.88 or so in an auto would perk the car up nicely.

Your next best option would be the Edelbrock supercharger kit, plus an oil cooler, plus maybe a final drive upgrade. That'd give you 'decent' power from the stock engine. 300ish I believe. Plus a little thermal protection.

One step up from the bolt on Edelbrock SC would be the Edelbrock SC unit with a smaller pulley, plus a built engine to handle the extra boost, plus fueling mods to feed the beast, plus the oil cooler. This option would probably get you over 300ish and cost maybe half of what your car originally did. :)

For us in Dubai the authorities are a bit strict about aftermarket boost so us guys who are afraid of not passing inspection (and don't have wasta) will usually stick to stuff like the AVO turbo, which looks pretty OEM. The crazy guys here with no wasta problems usually go turbo - full blown etc. - with built motors and shoot for the 400hp mark. No idea how they get their cars passed and they're usually not track guys but hey. Not many supercharged cars here, don't know why, just the way it is.

You could always talk to Sam at Sam Performance here in Dubai. He's done a bunch of boosted 86s, many different kits, many different power levels, some for Saudi clients.

For what it's worth I only find oil temps to be an issue when I'm tracking the car. If you're pushing your car hard even in stock form I'd recommend an oil cooler. Otherwise they seem to do pretty well in the heat.

Hala Bro,

So you have your car boosted with no overheating issues? not even in the peak of summer?
I envy you guys living at the sea level :D you get to squeeze few more horses compared to us who live relatively high above the sea level.

Back to our subject, My problem with Edelbrock I'm not sure if they have a reputable dealer/installer...
Cosworth on the other hand have a very knowledgeable racer shop as their dealer in the GCC, but the problem is the freaking insane asking price of almost 50K SAR!
Yet they don't mention anything about installing extra coolers for the Transmission Oil/Engine Oil... Just a mere "Racing Thermostat"


What about it? :)


Thanks for the elaboration, can you please explain the 370Z case for me?
How come Nissan 370Z that weighs 1450-1500KG and have a NA 3.7l producing around 337 BHP, is capable of 0-60 times around the 5s mark!
But when we ask for that from a Supercharged 2.0L engine, pushing a car that is almost 250Kg lighter, yet many replies that I got make it sounds impossible to run 0-60 around 5s :iono:
I'm looking for a 280Whp roughly 330Bhp and I'll have the weight advantage...! Something doesn't add up here (For me at least).


Spot on advice many thanks :)
1- So SC (since it's cooler)...
2- A vented hood... (I'm not sure I prefer this as it is very dusty where I live)
3- Long headers (To enhance low-mid range torque)...

points 1 and three scream go Cosworth 2.3

4-FD is the magic trick that will aid the acceleration big time.

Thanks again I like your feedback :)


Very informative indeed and specially useful feedback coming from a fellow 86er surviving the Hell of the summer in the Arabian Peninsula.

I'll seriously consider starting with the 4.88 FD, but any idea how much will it affect the top speed?

My second option is to go with upgraded cooling for both Transmission oil and for Engine oil too... I heard that the stock Radiator is good but from US/Japan/EU users... Do you think a replacing the Radiator is necessary?

As for the Forced Induction options, I'll most likely go with SC, as TC adds more heat complications + controlling the boost is very tricky, lets not forget the fact that the OEM is a 12.5:1 compression ratio, which makes it mandatory to approach the FI territories with extreme care... Plus I use it as a DD so I need the Low-Mid torque more I can't live with a turbo lag SC will insure having boost as early as possible in the RPM range.

Many Thanks Bro,



And Again'I'd like to thank you all, I'm greedy for more opinions/experiences/knowledge from you guys, please keep them coming :thumbup::thanks:

I recomend to have oil cooler even if you are not boosted.

I have vented hood, side vents, and oil cooler.

Oil temp and oil pressure gauge can keep you sure that everything is OK


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Compare the area under the curve. A 330bhp VQ37VHR is over 300hp for a LARGE power of that powerband; it's not just a momentary 330hp.

@UNREAL The VQ37VHR is also going to produce 250+ ft-lbs TQ very early, and pretty much hold that across the entire band.

As CSG posted above, the issue with 400+ hp on an FA20 is not heat, but rather cramming that much compressed air into a cylinder is difficult requiring an extremely strong engine, you will pay to have it rebuilt to the strongest parts and materials and still not have a guarantee that it will survive and fuel to prevent detonation.

There is a twofold problem here, the first is expectations, do you want less than 5s 0-60 or 370Z like acceleration? Some tests put the 370Z acceleration at greater than 5s to 60/62 mph, lots of things make a difference (like tires, road condition, and driver skill) but ultimately it's rare that ANYBODY will perform a test like this and be satisfied and put the car away and do nothing else with it. It's like judging a car entirely based on it's color.

We assumed "less than 5s" was in the realm of Mustang GT, 4.5s with 435 horsepower and the '10 M3 with a V8 has at least one publication claiming 4.1s in a sedan with 414hp. Many people come here with wild expectations so everyone assumes the worst. As already mentioned you are also fighting the automatic transmission gearing, a final drive swap will be helpful in getting from >7s to near 5s.

The second problem is your reliance on an installer, you are very limited to either off the shelf parts or a specialist who will likely demand a lot of money with no guarantee of end performance, for a GT86 making >300 horsepower at the wheels you will have to trust someone local, do electronic tuning through email halfway across the world or fly a specialist out, no way around it.

Reading your recent posts it seems like your target is actually more reasonable than many assumed, I believe you can get similar to 370Z performance out of a Jackson Racing kit, Vortech, or Edelbrock kit with a standard tune that comes with the kit and final drive swap. The raw numbers may disappoint you (about 240 horsepower at the wheels and slightly slower than 5s 0-62) but look up some stock 370Z dyno numbers, many are roughly at 260 wheel horsepower with about 200kg more weight. These kits have all been proven in relatively high heat conditions (California desert) assuming you also run an oil cooler, upgrading the radiator wouldn't hurt either. Since it sounds like you trust the Cosworth installer I don't think that's a bad option either, put aside your reliance on the numbers and appreciate the seat of the pants feel the car gives you, after all, that's why you bought it right?

tl;dr adjust expectations, buy something proven and off the shelf. If I were in your shoes and knew only what you posted I'd get the Cosworth kit, an oil cooler, transmission cooler, final drive swap and some good tires, probably around 235/245 wide and forget entirely about what 0-60 performance your car has. Accept that you'll lose many races in a straight line unless you buy a different car or spend a lot of money and accept a lot of risk.

1) We do have a light car. This is why there is only 200-300 lbs of weight reduction possible (before you make crazy modifications).

2) As others have said, low-end torque is the answer. We have slightly more aggressive gearing than a Z-car... but that's because we don't have as much torque. A manual 370Z has a 3.8:1 first gear and 3.692:1 final drive. An automatic GT86 has a 3.6:1 first gear and 4.1:1 final drive.

Interestingly, the automatic 370Z has a very similar top-gear (0.771:1) when compared to the GT86 (0.767:1). The final drive ratio make the Z's gearing taller overall though.

3) 91 Octane will be difficult to make power, unless you drop the compression ratio.

4) Others have abused the automatic transmission on this car without many problems. It's important to consider the temperature of your transmission fluid (since the oil film is what protects your transmission). A cooler is important. Even with a cooler, you're putting more stress on the parts, so replacing the fluid more often will be required.

Your goals are not impossible. It will just take some supporting modifications to guarantee that the car stays reliable. More power = more heat and more fuel. If you plan ahead, this can be done very reliably.

I have re-geared my automatic to 4.88's. I am NA so far and the gear change made a world of difference. I have rode in the Edelbrock supercharged car and the bottom end torque is awesome. This will be my next power option. Probably won't give me 0 to 60 5 second times but will be plenty to keep me and my tires happy for a long tine.

What about it? :)





644hp @29psi
524tq


@ 35 psi (CLASSIFIED)

Nice indeed :)

But I would keep an eye on the intake manifold at > than 30 psi.

Hello
 

I have the 4.88 FD, and could get 125 mph on 4th gear, 65mph at 6th gear at 2,850 RPMs... Thinking on 5.1 FD :)
That's how much I love the mod!!!

About cooling, well I live in the tropic (hot and humid) and temps are very well controlled for DD, the occasional solo cross events, 1/8 and 1/4 mile... never on 1/2 mile but maybe this is not a car for that :bonk:
2 engine oil coolers of 10 rows each and secuential, 2 oil cooler for tha AT (the OEM that is oil/water and one oil/air, also1 oil cooler for the SC (vortech). Almost forgot! Big radiator mishimoto I think, with OEM fans.

About speed! It's faster, than stoke... Could compete with others 4 cylinder and maybe 6 cylinder but they have to be NA or very bad tune. For the V8, I have to get in the car before them :bonk::)
But could get 0-60 in 5+ seconds, I run with low boost 9 psi at 6.5k rpms

Hope this help

Valuable advice, That I'll take into consideration :thumbsup:


I need to compare their dyno graphs... The torque being high through most of the graph makes sense... Thank you gentlemen for your valuable discussion and support.




Wow another great reply :clap::thumbsup: with all credit due to other participants... this one is the best so far...
Yes I want a more lively car that doesn't get obliterated in straight lines by stupid FF sedans and big family SUV's (Most families here are V8 but the weigh twice as much as my 86 if not more), I do want to hold my grounds with pony cars, at least not get so ashamed coughing in their dust...
Older Camaro RS or even SS, since they are almost 1000 pounds heavier than my car and were not as fast as they looked or specéd (Exclude the ones with LE package), Pre-2009 Mustangs GT's with their lousy 305hp V8's etc...
Hyundai Genesis Coupe's, 370Z... BMW 330i... Mercedes 300/350 E & C classes... you get the point?
The GT 86 looks so sporty (Mine in Flaming Red) it is humiliating how often people pull away from you or some challengers challenge you for a short sprint on an empty highway but you have to chicken out of the competition...

I get what I need to do...
1- Cooling everything with Mishimoto
2- 4.88 Final Drive (I asked several times in my previous replies what is the effect on top speed, but no answer till now:iono:)
3- a 1.5 LSD since I suspect mine doesn't have an LSD (AT 86's before 2014 shipped without LSD)
4- Drop in air-filter upgrade (TRD or K&N) As I heard that the OEM airbox is quite good and very nonrestrictive making all aftermarket air intakes a waste of money...
5- Better wheels and tires, I'll go with barely legal semi-slicks 18x8.5 and 245 on all corners (That advise I got from TireRack sales representative over their website) you think that size is good enough?
6- Forced Induction will be the last step, I'll go supercharger... less psi, better lower band responsiveness. Cosworth way I'll have to sell a kidney... I'm seriously leaning more towards HKS solution (I heard there is a V3 released very recently)

How is that plan?



Great so, I need not to worry much about the AT around 250-300whp, other than better cooling, better oil, and more frequent changes? right?

I use 95 Octane fuel, that is the best we have, how well would that fare against the high compression forced induction scenario?




how did that 4.88 FD affects the top speed of your car? I really want an answer to that? Thank you :)




I see, I see :D... But no thanks I'm not that confident nor I can control such beast... I think it'll behave ferociously like a wounded lion, and it'd die very soon as a wounded lion too...:)




You mean 165mph at the 6th Gear? you all getting me so excited about that 4.88 FD upgrade :drool:
Regarding heat dissipation too many coolers man :(
How do you manage too keep them all sorted? any photos?
Don't those many coolers radiators reduce the main radiator efficiency by reducing the amount of airflow reaching the main radiator + and at the same time heating the air before it reaches to the main radiator too?




Many thanks again, very informative thread that will be useful to many other fellow 86er's hopefully...
Awaiting for answers on the questions I posted above :)

I have never done any top speed runs so can't comment on that.

Does the change FD bother at your daily commute?
I think not :) Attachment 124494


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short version: it drops the top speed, but the car doesn't have the HP to get to it anyway so it doesn't matter.

i set this up when i was trying to see what a 4.88 would do to my cruising speed.

http://calc.teammfactory.com/gearcal...ission+1+%26+2


you can put in other Final drive ratios to see the changes. or you can put in the manual gear ratios and play with that.

Attachment 124496


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And I was wrong!
60mph at 2,200rpms.
That pic is with the 4.88 FD


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Knock is pre-ignition of the air-fuel mixture... based on too much compression.

Octane number is a relative measure of knock resistance. Many formulations can be called 95RON... but they all have a the same knock resistance. This is equivalent to a mixture of 95% iso-octane and 5% n-heptane.

Some chemicals resist knock better than either of the above chemicals. Ethanol is one of them... which makes it great for turbocharged applications that generate high cylinder pressures.

Real knock resistance is a function of cylinder pressures and temperatures:
http://www.rx7club.com/attachments/a..._pressure4.jpg

Maybe i missed it skimming through... How does 4.88fd affect gas mileage? Im not too familiar with how each gear scales and stuff.

The big difference on MPGs is with right foot, no the FD or FI alone will make a huge difference.


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For all the hassle, cost and expense I'd honestly just get another car!
Esp if the 0-60 goals etc are high priority

While changing from 4.10 to 4.88 FD reduces the load on the engine, in theory this should give better mileage, but in reality you'll waste so much more gas having fun with the new FD that it usually reduces MPG. In the AT, the traction control comes on almost immediately with a 4.10 FD. With the 4.88 FD though, I was able to spin tires in 3 gears before the traction control kicked in. An example of bad MPG while having fun. There are websites that have gear/speed calculators to tell you what your engine speed change is, but the bottom line is the way you drive, AND the way your car is tuned will affect MPG a lot more than a 4.88 FD.