How to deal with cheaters?
 

I went to an AutoX event yesterday in my region and finished 3rd in Novice Class. After the event was over I discovered that the driver who took 1st was using racing slicks. The last time I checked, only street tires are allowed in Novice. This isn't meant to sound like sour grapes, but it just doesn't seem fair to everyone else who actually followed the rules. What's the best way to deal with situations like this? Should I report it to somebody at SCCA? I've never been one to report people for infractions, but this just seems totally blatant.

Follow protest protocol. Ask a veteran how to file a protest.

Unfortunately, you have to do it at the event not after.

different regions deal with "novice" classes differently, I'd ask the club that organized the event first on how to proceed...

Are you sure they weren't "DOT Hoosiers"?


Those dont count as "Slicks" (at least in my race club) as they have two rain grooves.

That's what I'm leaning towards. Don't know anything about a "novice" class either. Sounds like they were running C Stock.

"C Stock" Doesn't exist anymore. It is CS(C Street) - Only 200tw+ tires are allowed. If you want to run lower than that you would end up in CSR(If you region offers that class.


Novice class ussually has nothing to do with the car, just a way to compete against other "noobs". We don't even offer a novice group in my region. Ever region handles this class different. Some are a straight N, some are N followed by your normal pax classing, like how some regions run a Pro index.

I guess it's a moot point now since the event is already over. I'll just have to pay closer attention to what the competition is doing next time. Either way though, running slicks as a "Novice" seems like a pretty sandbagger move to me.

our novice all get thrown into one class that is based off pax time. so r-compunds are fine, they just have their modifier for the class they would end up in. Currently a GS car is winning novice because of it.

I could see a 2 driver car where the owner has it spec'd out and he is just letting a friend of his try out autox with the car.

Our novice class here in WA doesn't allow R-Comps. If it isn't Street class legal you can't do novice in it. Like others have said, though, every region is different. All you really get here is a beer mug/pint glass. We did add novice as a full season trophy thing for our region, too, but no one has made the minimum 6 events to get that.

Isn't the point of autocross just a fun way to spend a little bit of money between real races? ;)

Sorry just never been a serious autocrosser even when I was winning every event. I think there was one event where I actually checked tire pressures though! So that's progress..

On topic though, I was in the situation the guy you are calling a cheater was possibly in before. Even down to being called a cheater. See, I had run HPDEs previously, had R comps, etc. Decided to try autocross, asked the SCCA classing guy at the event where I should run, told him I had R comps, and he put my in a street tire class. People were livid and protested me, event mentioned to me that I was a cheating asshole. It wasn't until I explained what happened that they understood and got over it. So even if it's cheating by the rules, understand that the guy may have been like me and didn't know anything about the rules and asked the organizers to place the car where it should be.

We do see a number of new people sharing cars with experienced drivers. So, the car could belong to an avid racer who is just "trying" to help get more people into racing.

**Letting a noob run a car on R comps is a terrible idea... they will quickly become addicted to purple sticker crack!

imo give yourself a mental silver medal, email the event organizers as a heads up as to what you saw in a polite and non-confrontational manner, and prepare for the next event.

My son is running the FR-S locally in the Novice class this year, his 1st year Autocrossing. Locally people don't cheat in Novice. They just show up in a modified Miata, a track prepped Evo or a new Alfa 4C. He is driving a butter knife against a Desert Eagle 50 cal. every week. Should I tell him adversity builds character? Just my 2 cents, DP.

I don't care for autox but the way I read this, if the slicks are in fact cheating. This is more of an over sight by the organizers as tires are clearly visible. It's not like it's something a racer took time to hide and get away with.

I agree with Dave, I thought autox was just for fun and some seat time. When people take it so seriously it just seems silly.

erm... not all


if he was in a class that allowed rcomps, then he was in his full right to run rcomps

now, if you were in the same class but didn't run rcomps, then that's on you for not running to the prep level allowed.


"novice" championships are run outside of the standard rules, and they are determined by the club organizing that particular series.

In our case, we simply lump anyone who is a novice into a separate group for year end points calculation.


So if John Doe came in 15th overall for Event #1, but was the fastest novice, then in his individual novice standing he would get 100 points for event #1... simple as that.


what class they are in is irrelevant, because pax already exists to handle that variable

so he was only "cheating" if he was in a street tire class but running rcomps or if your series novice rules forbid the use of rcomps, in which case, if you really care, you can email the organizers and let them know that the other person was not following the rules and let them make a decision on how to proceed.

What region, and is there a link to results? That might help explain it.

The matter has been settled with my SCCA regional rep. I was given some bad information from the start which caused some confusion. I really didn't want to make a big deal about it. Just wanted to make sure everything was on the up and up. Thanks for all the feedback.

FWIW, most regions expect self-policing. In a friendly manner if at all possible (sometimes it's REAL difficult, and sometimes they're consciously cheating, but most of the time they're just as unaware of the rules as you).

"Hey man, fast car! I'm still kinda new at this, so maybe I don't understand something, but I thought those tires weren't allowed in this class?"

vs

"Hey, no fair, you can't have those! I'm filing a protest!!"

One of those makes you a friend. The other makes you an enemy, or at least drives them away. If you're really unsure of how to approach, find a local pro/organizer for how to address it amicably. I think you'll find that they won't even have protest paperwork and/or be willing to hear one. It's a local. Have fun, accumulate seat time, and then start beating others without needing to worry about such things.

No. You should make sure he asks for instructor help, early and often, particularly including instructor runs. If he hasn't done so already, it will be an eye-opening experience. A butter knife can be quite dangerous in the right hands.

Thanks Mike, I agree he just needs some good instruction and more seat time. DP

Protesting novice class: silly season has officially started.

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If you ran in TN SCCA, the novice that won was an ESP Mustang and probably on Dot radials like Hoosiers which look like slicks but legal for ESP which their PAX is based for novice. So that would make the tires legal. But he has to run a much faster raw time than you to beat you in PAX. But 3rd of 20 in Novice is excellent. Come to Al SCCA and run at our large new site. Should have a National Tour there next year. Come look me up.

Clay

Not really any "rules" for novice normally. And honestly novice is just a catch all for first timers. You should be worried about driving better etc. not worried about what parts are on other cars in novice.

There are definitely rules some clubs. It's an indexed class with a pretty sweet prize in Milwaukee, so the rules apply.

C

Welcome to competitive motorsports. :)

My advice would be to sit down, have a cup of tea and ask yourself why you're running.

If you're doing it for fun it's best to just let it slide - forget what other people are doing, what the organizers are doing, how the classification system works and focus exclusively on enjoying yourself and improving your own times, with anything beyond that (trophies and whatnot) as merely being a bonus.

If you're in it for trophies or championship wins then prepare to study the rules and spend whatever it takes to max out your car's specs to the allowable class limits, because that's exactly what everybody else will be doing.

Once you get competitive motorsports is often unfair, political and very expensive precisely because of the nature of the beast - absolutely everybody will be trying to game the system in every way possible, right up to the limits of the rules and sometimes beyond, order to get ahead.

Since you're running in a beginner class I suggest letting it all slide and start training yourself to focus on what kind of enjoyment and personal development you're getting out of it. You'll enjoy it much more that way.

You don't know much about autocross... :laughabove:

SMH...it's like some of you were never noobs or something. Healthy, passionate competition in novice categories is good for the future of the sport. If there are rules about what you can and can't do in novice they should be followed, not laughed at.

Once upon a time, you sucked too. Don't forget that.

I don't even think there was a single protest at Canadian Nationals this year. Event's are much smaller in Canada and everyone seems to class themselves correctly and ask for help if they are new. Lucky we weighed our car before running as I had to add water and tool box ballast to meet minimum weight for my class.

Hey, I suck now, thank you very much.


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I still suck. Doesn't make me care anymore or less about novice class rule violations. Serious autocrossers (and I know a number of nats winners) are always funny to me with their serious take on autocross which is a sport I've always done purely for fun and to bridge W2W racing, which I also do purely for fun. Becoming so serious about it makes it something I don't want to do as much, or at all.

....of course! Why would you care about something that doesn't concern you! That would be a complete waste of your time and nerves.


:scared0016:




While you certainly don't have to take the events seriously, you are still obligated to follow the rules, which I assume you do, because your participation and adherence to said rules is what allows those who take the events seriously to have a foundation for said seriousness.

And in doing so, you have, even somewhat, a responsibility to uphold this integrity and bring it to attention any rule violations you are aware of, be they intentional or accidental.


Self-policing is a very important part of any grassroots motorsport event, you don't get to "not care" with impunity, you must, to some degree, care and provide input, especially around novices who should be told early on, and reminded often, the importance of abiding by the honor system.


This year I've caught a number of misclassifications and various calculation errors in our series' results. Had this not been me, it MIGHT have been someone else, but I wasn't going to take that chance, who knows, maybe I was the only one noticed.

Not sure on the points you are making. If the guy is cheating then he is cheating.

Just because you are serious doesn't mean you are not having fun. Competition is part of the fun.

Everyone has their own perspective in what they want out of it. I autocross for fun but I treat it like any other sport I played growing up... I play to win. There's also the social element where I've met many new friends autocrossing... so it's turned into a cross of just "hanging out" and doing all I can to win. That doesn't happen often, but I have more fun when I do well. :iono:

I hoped autocross may be a bridge to W2W, but the costs for that are on another stratosphere for me, so I'll be "stuck" driving around parking lots and airfields.

One, we don't even know if the guy in question was cheating. The groups I run with allow R comps in Novice classes.


Secondly, intentional cheating and accidental cheating (which I have been guilty of when I didn't know and asked the organizers to place me) are two different things.

Yeah I basically autocross for the social element. I usually run in faster classes that I belong to not win. I don't want to take the points and stickers/trophies from those who actually care. I run all seasons now for autocrossing to really ensure that I don't win and to have a hell of a fun time throwing the car around. Not even good all seasons.. on a lightish car with 270whp. I suggest all autocrossers to try the combination!

I'm really not obligated to follow the rules, and often don't. I just make sure I won't win when doing so. I don't build my cars for an autocross class... never have and never will. Getting personal enjoyment out of the cars is something I care about FAR more than building to a class so when I break the rules I class myself in a class I have no chance of winning. Or should have no chance of winning anyways.


I agree no one should cheat to win, but this is a novice who probably didn't even know any better. It should have been addressed to him directly IMO to find out the full story. I don't police cars and classing because I quite simply don't care. It doesn't affect my enjoyment during my runs. I find it far more enjoyable to not worry about crap like that. Then again I almost never have a run without a passenger so you can see how much I care about being competitive.

a) Check the rules for you region, it may be allowed.

b) It's novice class. While it is good to have that competitive spirit, this class is meant to put all the new guys together to learn, get instructor runs, talk to the pro guys for pointers, etc. The point of Novice class is to learn yourself and your car. In two years you're gonna replace the "3rd Place Novice Class" award with a very proud "8th Place Street/STX Class" award anyways because it means more.

c) Make friends FIRST before you make enemies. Even if a guy is cheating, use it as motivation to get faster, it'll be more sweeter when you're faster...he's a novice too, remember? Make friends with and talk to the fast guys, send them GoPro videos to critique your driving, LEARN. He's not learning nearly as much on slicks as you will on the stock Michelins...