Concept Z Performance (CZP) will steal from you, literally.
 

Really, it is that simple.

Over the weekend, I spoke with @Mike@CZP who told me that he could ship a Berk Overpipe & a Berk hi-flo catted Frontpipe to me for a combined special price of 390 dollars. After receiving my payment, Mike@CZP informed me that the Berk Frontpipe shipment would be delayed until at least mid-October, but that the overpipe had already shipped.

I informed Mike@CZP that I was unwilling to wait until November to receive my frontpipe, especially considering that other vendors have the item currently in-stock for a similar price. I further informed Mike@CZP that I was unwilling to take receipt of a partial order of only the minimally discounted overpipe with a cost of 30 dollars in shipping. I gave Mike@CZP the option of sourcing the frontpipe from another vendor with the part in-stock, such as CounterSpace Garage (http://counterspacegarage.com/berk-hfc.html) or substituting a similar frontpipe from another manufacturer. He declined both options.

However, Mike@CZP did inform me that he would be adding an additional 50 dollar charge on my credit card if I initiated a credit card dispute with my bank.

So that's Concept Z Performance for you. Probably best to avoid them and pay a few bucks more for items from a legitimate company.

Update: Mike decided to leave me negative ft86 forum trader feedback for being "unreasonable" when he won't source the frontpipe from another vendor who has it in stock for roughly the same price as what he charged me. I've decided to wait until November for my frontpipe to arrive from Berk via CZP, the best option out of a bunch of terrible options provided by CZP. I'll update the thread if it ever arrives.

I would inform your bank of this statement. They do have this Return Policy on their website which mentions a $50 dollar charge. It looks like you should be able to return the part no problem, but you are on your own with shipping charges.

Would have made a lot more sense to have called you before sending out a partial order....

Hey Aaron,

I hope I can clear this up. As I stated in our emails, I would gladly receive all the parts back to me with no penalty to you at all. (100% refund, no shipping fees, etc.) I even offered to credit you back for the missing part with additional money to find the part from another vendor.

Our policies on our site show that there is a $50 chargeback fee if a dispute is made. I tried to let you know that so that you do not get charged $50. I have tries to help in every situation, but I am being accused of stealing. I have offered to receive everything back to with no fees to you.

I tried to get the other half of the order from being shipped, but it shipped directly from the manufacturer, and it was already too late.

If you check my feedback, you will see that I have no negative revewis (pending this whole transaction), and there is a reason for that.

I do apologize for any inconvenience to you, and am always ready to help you (even receiving all the parts back with no fees to you)

Hi Mike,


In the scenario where I send everything back and you refund my card, the time spent on mailing the package and the cost of shipping the Berk piece(s) back to you from the manufacturer are both penalties to me.


In the scenario where I keep the Berk overpipe and source the frontpipe from another vendor, the loss of a combination deal and additional shipping charges are both penalties to me. Your offer of a 10 dollar credit didn't help this scenario too much.


In the scenario where I refuse delivery and do a merchant chargeback, you'll take more of my money, hold my money currently with you pending the outcome of the chargeback and I still won't have an overpipe or frontpipe, all penalties to me.


I was serious when I said I would have gone with another vendor had you told me about the frontpipe delay. Your shipping of a partial order has prevented me from exercising that option. I have simply asked you to provide me with an option which does not penalize me further, something you are currently unwilling to consider.

Option 1:

I just checked the tracking number and saw that it was delivered on 9/17 (overpipe). I can go ahead and email you a return label for the overpipe. You will have to pay for nothing. The package will arrive back to me in 2-3 business days, and the refund will show up 1-2 days after that. You will be fully refunded. You can order the combo from another vendor that has the front pipe in stock.

Option 2:

Receive credit back for the Front Pipe + $10. I quoted you much lower than CSG (Over $250 when you add shipping and taxes). It is not my fault that my quote was much lower. I cannot credit you back for more than what you paid for the item.

Option 3

Wait for the front pipe to arrive.

Seems reasonable enough to me

From my perspective, Option 1 is an unnecessary hassle that was entirely created by you. It would have been better had I never ordered from you in the first place, which is what I would have done, had you told me the truth about your frontpipe delay before taking my money. I am not in the business of fixing other people's screw-ups for free, especially when the person who screwed-up is holding my money until I fix his screw-up for him.


Option 3 is "deal with it." Thanks bro.


As for Option 2, had I gone with CSG, I would have had my parts by now. I think that says enough about paying a couple dollars more and going with a superior company versus your company.


It also speaks volumes that you are unwilling to acknowledge your mistake, eat maybe a 30 dollar difference, and just order from another vendor who has the part in stock. You're still making money on the deal, just less than you intended.


As for me, I will wait and see if a frontpipe ever arrives from your company. I'll update the thread when/if that happens.

I never claimed that we did not make a mistake. The manufacturer told me it was in stock, but then it was not when we placed the order. They shipped it out and told me afterward. It was our fault, so we have tried to fix it numerous times, but you will not accept the standard procedure of a full refund with no penalty to you.

For Option 1, you would just need to slap a label on the box and drop it off at Kinko's. I am sorry if that is an inconvenience for you. Every online company (Amazon, Ebay, etc) has the same procedure.

You asked for all the options, so I included the option of you keeping your order, which is what you are electing to do because you do not want to pay the extra money to place your order through another vendor.

I given you 2 legitimate options where you get all your money back, and also an option that gives you more money to purchase from somewhere else.

I will update your tracking number for the Front Pipe once it becomes available. Let me know if you would like to cancel your order at any point.


Mike

Did you really just suggest that Amazon or Ebay lie to customers about product availability, ship partial orders without warning and then tell the customer to drop it off at Kinko's on their own time if they don't like it?


Because that sounds very unlike either Amazon or Ebay. It sounds more like a fly-by-night dropshipping company which either doesn't communicate with its manufacturer or gets lied to and then passes the problem onto its customers.

I do apologize if we have caused inconvenience. If you would like to make any changes in your order or have any other questions, please contact me.

Questions:


Why did you leave me negative trader feedback?


Do you really think "Would not accept refund. Unreasonable" is a fair way of describing this situation?


If I could get a full refund without doing your job for you, I would have already taken that option.

PM Sent with option to Return w/UPS/Fedex Pick-up. Let me know.

I have dealt with Mike@CZP before and I didn't have any issues. The customer service was good and shipping was fast.

I think he has given you several options which all seem reasonable. You stress that he lied and stole money from you, but I don't think that is the case. He quoted you a product based on availability from the manufacturer. He took the order, but later found out it wasn't available. This happened to me with another vendor here. No biggie.

You say that everyone should go with another reputable vendor instead and spend "a few bucks more". $250 doesn't seem like a few bucks more to me. Why don't you take your advice and just send back the part you got? Nothing gets charged to you and you can order it elsewhere. This way everyone can cut ties and chalk it up to a lessons learned.

Mike, at this point, I'm not taking on the liability of trying to ship items back to you.


I'm not fixing Mike's manufacturer problem for him, on my own time, on my own dime. If he wants to run a business where his manufacturer lies to him, and then he passes those lies onto his customers, he should be prepared to deal with negative feedback. I'm sure his system works great 99% of the time, but it sure didn't this time, and he doesn't really seem to be interested in making it right.

Also, I never said he stole money, I said he will steal money. As in, he stated he will initiate unauthorized credit card charges if I initiate a merchant chargeback. That's not exactly lawful in my state. Hence, stealing. I'm not even getting into the fact that he seems to think its okay to hold my money until I fix his screw-up.

The deal was money for parts. I fulfilled my portion of the bargain. I am still waiting for Mike to do the same.

It seems like what's done is done (in regards to the initial transaction). Couldn't CZP simply send you a return label and schedule a pickup for the return? Once the package is in transit to them, initiate the refund. Yes, there has already been an inconvenience, and yes they have held onto your money, and there is negative feedback. You will get your money back, they will get their part and you can decide to do business with them in the future (highly unlikely it seems). Seems reasonable.

Yes, but then I would be liable for the shipment if it did not arrive to CZP, was damaged in shipping, got lost by the mailguy, etc. I'm not letting Mike shift the merchant's shipping risk from his pile of problems to my pile of problems. For obvious reasons related to what I've seen of Mike's business practices, I am unwilling to take any additional risks in our transaction.

Well, my dog isn't in this fight but I am curious to know EXACTLY what you want to happen. Get Mike to release all liability on the return (assuming there's no funny business) and be done with. Or are you asking for some type of monetary compensation on top of the return?

If Mike can purchase a new Berk catted frontpipe from another source for close to what I paid him, and have it shipped to me before November, and he still makes money, shouldn't I ask for that?


Because that's what I am asking for.

Seems like a different transaction all together (the transaction between Mike and other source). Getting new Berk catted front pipe shipped to you before November, at no extra cost to you is what needs to be done. That's what you paid for. Money for parts. I may have misinterpreted something, however this is what I gather.

You're assuming that Mike and I had some agreement as to where he would source the frontpipe from; however, we had no specific term as to the source of the frontpipe. I don't care if he sources it from Berk, CSG or Lucifer, Prince of Darkness, the frontpipes are all the same and cost roughly the same, because the frontpipes are fungible goods.

At the end of the day, Mike is electing to preserve his profits via going only with Berk at the expense of my customer experience through unreasonable delay for a commonly available part. That's his choice to make, but I'm not sure that it shows the best business judgment or customer relation skills.

I understand you now. I initially thought that you wanted the profit delta from Mike's transaction with another vendor. Nonetheless, I hope that you two are able to come to a mutual agreement that satisfies each of you. Good luck

I've dealt with CZP for years and spent a considerable amount of money with them. You don't sound like you have a grasp on SOP's and are trying to fault a vendor.

I appreciate that you have an ongoing business relationship with CZP, but could you please elaborate on what I'm not understanding about SOPs and vendor customer service standards.

I want to start a User Feedback thread on ATaraxias warning other vendors not to do business with him?

I'm a real unreasonable jerk, somebody call the internet police.

I pay vendors for products, and then, I actually expect them to be true to what they told me during the sale. Apparently, some customers dislike being lied to about product availability, especially when the product is currently in-stock with other vendors for the same price.

Did you physically call other vendors to see if it was actually in hand? Almost everything automotive related is drop shipped now a days. They probably looked at turn 14 or something and it said "available", when really, it's not and there is an issue. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened

So, now that we have heard all the "evidence", in the charge of theft (the literally kind) in the online forum degree how does the court find the defendant?

A lie implies that they purposely told you something they knew to be untrue. We don't have any proof that they did that. Just send them the part back, buy from CSG and get on with your life. Let us know what city you live in and perhaps we can get another FT86Club member to come to your house and box up the part and drop it at a FedEx so you aren't put out of all that valuable time.

Yes, other vendors have the frontpipe currently in-stock.

Mike@CZP is entire able to source the frontpipe from a vendor who is not the manufacturer, still retain a profit margin and have the frontpipe to me by this weekend. He has simply elected to make a larger profit by sourcing only from the manufacturer, leading to a month(s) long delay in my receipt of the frontpipe.

That's why I'm unsatisfied with CZP. They pulled a flim-flam on product availability and still think they can make 100% anticipated profits by passing the problem on to their customer.

I think it is a truthful and complete way of describing this situation. You are being totally and completely unreasonable.

Have you ever bought something on the internet before? Crap happens. I have no idea who this vendor is, but he is literally doing the most any other vendor will ever do, and in fact many times Amazon and EBay will force you to pay shipping no matter what, even when they make a mistake. Many many companies will just say,"oops it is back ordered, nothing we can do." And leave it at that.

Do you know what the word lie actually means? Or are you just trying to be totally unreasonable in hopes the vendor simply pays you off to be quiet?

In this world we live in most companies have zero actual product on hand and completely rely on manufacturers to drop ship products for them. Sometimes manufacturers screw up and make mistakes. It happens from Amazon, it happens from ebay, it happens from every vendor everywhere. That's just modern life. This vendor has done as much for you as Amazon does for its Amazon Prime customers and you are attacking him.

You weren't lied to, stop the bs. At this point no vendor on this website should ever take an order from you, you are being that unreasonable. I suggest you never order from anywhere online, you simply aren't going to be happy.

When a vendor says here is a label slap it onto a box, they are taking 100% responsibility, not you. If fedex screws up it is on fedex and the vendor, not you. When you drop the package off and fedex scans the label your liability completely ends. This is how the modern internet package return system works.

What happens to you happens to others constantly. Vendors make mistakes constantly. It sucks and they all do what this vendor does and people realize that is all that can be done and move on with their lives. This vendor has openly done exactly what every good vendor does.

Now the $50 dispute thing? I am sure there is a story behind that and I am sure they didn't do all the research they ought to to see if that policy is actually legal.

LOL I feel for you @Mike@CZP .

I think it's very clear you've been reasonable and provided enough options to satisfy the customer, even though refunding all money will result in some loss to you.

I will do business with you in the future :cheers:

Actually, many forms of lying exist outside of malicious, intentional lying. "Reasonably ought to have known" is a common phrase in commercial law because it keeps intentional ignorance from being a defense to damages. For example, Mike reasonably ought to have known that his manufacturer has a months long delay in producing frontpipes because it impacts a material term (shipment date) of every sale he makes on that frontpipe from now until they are manufactured.


Legally, the proper remedy for the buyer (me) in this situation is to buy the part from another vendor, and then turn-around and send the original vendor (CZP) a bill for the price difference along with a bill for incidental damages. (§ 2-712. "Cover"; Buyer's Procurement of Substitute Goods.) By the way, commercial law does see "transportation and care and custody of goods rightfully rejected" as incidental damages. That's right, legally, "box it up yourself and take it to Kinko's" is completely flim-flam if requested by a seller. (§ 2-715. Buyer's Incidental and Consequential Damages.)


King Tut, you might be in the business of fixing other people's screw-ups for them for free, on your own time, on your own dime. Maybe you are a king among men, but don't get upset at the other men who refuse to act as you choose. I made a bargain, fulfilled my portion of the bargain and now I expect the benefit of my bargain. That's business, and commercial law agrees with me.

In the time you've spent trying to make your case both on FT86 and with CZP, you could have already shipped the part back and collected a full refund. At this point I feel like you are just trying to "make a point" when it is clear that Mike has done everything in an attempt to rectify the situation.

In the time that I've spent making my case, Mike could have already ordered the part from a vendor who has it in-stock for the same price as I paid him and completed the deal.


Why is Mike's screw-up my problem?

You walk into Starbucks and ordered caramel flavored coffee. You pay for it and they make the coffee but unfortunately have to inform you that they are out of caramel at the moment. They offer to either refund the difference of the coffee without the caramel, allowing you to keep your product, or offer a full refund requesting you return the coffee currently in your possession. Your final option is to simply wait until their next shipment of caramel arrives in 3 days. You refuse all alternatives and state that they should walk next door to buy caramel from a grocery store or another competing coffee shop in order to fulfill your order completely. That is basically your situation to a lesser degree. The only person's time wasted in the end is your own. Think about it. :cheers:

Am I within my rights under commercial law to go to the grocery store, buy the caramel myself, and then return to Starbucks with a bill for the caramel to complete my order? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_(law)) Because if I am, it seems unreasonable that Starbucks would decline to simply go and purchase the caramel themselves. Moreover, it seems unlikely that Starbucks will keep around a Barista who takes customer orders that cannot be filled in a timely manner.

But more importantly, the transaction reversal is instantaneous in your hypothetical. However, the transaction reversal in this case would take a minimum of one week, with two weeks being a more likely scenario. That puts us in early October, so then I order the parts from another vendor, another week goes by before they arrive. Now I'm in mid-October, when CZP says that Berk may begin shipping new frontpipes, and I'm getting the parts from another vendor. Doing a reversal of the transaction at this point is of little or no benefit to me.

Your hypothetical has no shipping transit time and that is why it is a flawed hypo.

I'm the guy behind you in the coffee shop recording you while you rant.




Enjoying my coffee. :scared0016:

Guess you didn't ask for caramel.

unless you have a signed contract (with actual signatures, not reproductions) good luck with that so called commercial law. No agreement made over email, private messaging systems or any form of social media is legally binding.

Legally the proper remedy for you is to do what any other actually reasonable person would do in your situation, and that is slap the label on and go your own way. If you do not want to do this, stop whining.

No vendor anywhere should ever do business with you. When you made the agreement to purchase from a vendor you made an agreement to act rationally and reasonably if something goes wrong. You've failed miserably in that regard.