I agree, it's one of the pitfalls of relying on numerical data. Sadly, it's one of the only ways companies measure their buyers. All about "averages" and the bottom-line...

Suzuki is attempting to move upscale, only real sign of it right now is the Kizashi--not that bad of a car, it's a great effort. More will come.

Volvo, known for their safety features, is in a tight spot because laws and regulation make safety features mandatory. I would bet most BMW's ties Volvo in crash-test etc etc. Volvo, thinking progressively, is trying to get younger and enthusiastic buyers. New S60, charming car.

I actually think Hyundai is doing great. They're more upscale than ever before. They even managed to meet projected sales with the Genesis sedan, a $45k Hyundai!?!? Wouldn't have believed it 5-6 years ago. Gen Coupe is nice, Sonata looks great, Elantra is light-years ahead of it's prior self.

Yes, Cadillac is a real success. It's a miracle what GM was able to do with it. Pontiac was about to pick up speed too, it's just a shame GM didn't have the money.

It's a inexcusable figure, almost a joke. Whether or not Scion's worth saving (or even capable of saving) ehh, it's hard for me to take the "kill it" stand but I do fully understand both sides.

A mild re-fresh, I agree, certainly won't do. Scion needs a complete work-over. How, or even if, they're doing it...I haven't a clue.

Yes, firing all the old execs is a step in the right direction.

As I said before, I have nothing else to really say besides theoretical possibility for the brand.

Interesting idea. I think it's always cool when a brand has a designated sport model of a "normal" car. Golf/Rabbit GTI, Civic Si, Mazdaspeed3, BMW M division, Mercedes AMG line etc etc etc.

Obviously the 86 won't be a spiced up Corolla sedan but the idea is still there.

haha, imagine getting attacked by some very violent environmentalist.
"Your sports car is killing our planet! DESTROY!"
"No wait wait wait! It's economical, it's a Corolla! Look at the badge."
"Oh...it is a Corolla....never mind."

Whether they publicly acknowledge it or not, they should by all means realize they did a bad job, otherwise they have their head in the sand and are headed for disaster.

Toyota's image in 2011 is one without the sports cars I named, whereas their history is full of them, hence making the FT-86 a Toyota is NOT a square peg in a round hole. To think that is idiotic. In fact, most of the enthusiast market would agree that Toyota NEEDS to get back to that point in their history. As long as they keep making the Prius and versions of it, NOTHING can tarnish their brand as a green car maker. Do you not realize they have 6 SUVs and two trucks in their lineup (another absurdity for another argument another day, but I digress...)?

I know exactly what you mean when you say "new scion", however
a) Scion was never meant to be an enthusiast brand and b) why should Toyota waste more money on it? As I said before, what's it worth? Please read my last post. I don't think it should be killed...yet anyway, but I can think of 10 better ways to improve it than to shoehorn the FT-86 into it's lineup. c) Most sports car buyers have some measure disposable income. That means they will either be in a slightly higher age target demographic, or in a higher income demographic. How does Scion fit in again?

If Toyota is going to insist that the FT-86 be a Scion then it will need way more than 180hp as Scion already has a 180hp coupe in it's line-up

The average auto buyer doesn't understand RWD>FWD and will walk into the scion dealer and see two coupes: a 180hp $20,000 tC and a $25,000 FT-86.

The FT-86 will need at least 220hp to justify the price gap over the tC to your average joe that doesn't know or care that one is RWD and the other FWD. Without a turbo I highly doubt the new FB series of engine can get much over 200hp NA so it's going to be a tough sale as a Scion.

I couldn't agree more. To help your argument the TC starts at $19K. Not many people are gonna walk into the scion dealer and say hey only $6,000 more for 20hp.

Does anyone notice how all these rumors keep getting blow up?
1st rumor it will be pushed back... False
2nd rumor they will be different cars between Toyota and subaru.. False
3rd rumor the Subaru will be AWD (and so many ppl got on this band wagon)... False
4th rumor Subaru will have a different (bigger) engine... false (perhaps in the top Lvl trim they will differ but base=same)
5th rumor it's gonna be a scion... What the fuck do you think?
See the trend here? Only actual stuff released by Toyota and Subaru proved viable.. All other crap from the net was just that, crap..
And these are just of the top of my head

There was also the other rumor that Toyota totally scrapped the design of the FT-86 concept and was going to go with something different, possibly more Italian in style... yeah lots of rumors.

There were also rumors that they might change the car to a hybrid like the CR-Z. I hope this was just a rumor and false from the get-go, because if Toyota was ever thinking about it... shame on them.

I think, you were talking about Subie ver rumor...

Was it? I can't remember. There were so many rumors flying around for so long (and still are), it's so hard to keep track. Hopefully things get set straight... soon...

That's not crazy at all. It should be called Celica. This is exactly the type of car the Celica is. The Celica name has heritage, strong brand-recognition, and is just a great name overall. The FT-86 absolutely should be the 8th Gen Celica. There are a few posts saying the Celica name is somehow "ruined" because the last 4 generations were FF. I don't see it that way. The FF Celicas were still good looking, fun cars, and 2011 is the Celica's 40th anniversary. What better way to celebrate by reviving the name?

Just one Scion badge even touching this car will doom it. I am a potential buyer for this car, and like many of you, I WILL NOT buy it if it has Scion badges. I just won't. I'm one of the biggest Toyota nuts out there. I almost every car they've built, except for the Scion brand. And I know I'm far from alone looking at the poll results for this thread and various postings all over the net bemoaning this car as a Scion. Aside from emotional issues, there are many technical reasons to NOT brand it a Scion. There is still a good % of Toyota dealers who do NOT sell Scion - this in effect limits the potential markets this car can be sold in if it's a Scion.

The Toyota division desperately needs a halo model sports car, and this car is perfect for it. This car's success will definitely improve the prospects of a revived MR2 and Supra, IMHO, and I don't want to see those at Scion with some shitty alpha-numeric name. FT-S? It sounds like it should be at a Cadillac dealer.

I'm not a Scion fan by any stretch of imagination, but I think its vilification is somewhat unjustified.

Total Scion sales for 2010 was 29,672... pretty terrible.

The year-to-date sales for 2011 (Jan + Feb) for Scion this year is 7219, or 43,314 for the year at this rate... not exactly stellar, but an improvement from last year.

Thing is, I don't think Scion sales suck simply because "Scion sucks." I think there are a lot of factors. The big one is that if Scion is supposed to appeal to the youth market, then they should know that that market moves on quickly, and that they need to keep up to make their line-up fresh. They didn't do that, and the Scion TC went on for years and years.

The xB failed because it outgrew its own niche. Then you have a somewhat similar xD. A brand that's supposed to be edgy, hip wasn't anymore. Plus you had the Toyota accelerator drama, the economic downturn, lapse in product window for the xB.

Hate the brand all you want, but I think it's too early to pull the plug on Scion. I do think that the chances of the FT86 selling better is higher though with Toyota, since Scion's kinda in disarray at the moment. Branding-wise, it seems destined for Scion though.

From a peak of over 170,000. Remember that.

Scion needs the axe. Its nifty marketing worked, very briefly and now it is its own liability. What are they going to do? Come out with a new 'edgy' brand every 5 years?

Take the funding away from these retarded campaigns. Give it to engineers to make good, innovative vehicles. Then tell these marketing twits to find a market for these superior products.

You don't invent a market to sell a mediocre product (these are repackaged Corollas and Echo/Yaris (Yari, Yarises?) in a fancy package to. Especially when these markets are super fluid, and sensitive to being market TO.

Product, product, product. If you build it they will come.

Scion has the new tC and also the iQ coming out later this year which should help increase sales. They do not need the FT86, nor should they get it. An article over at ToyotaNation from the Chief Engineer of the project said specifically it was coming to the US as a Toyota and made mention that they thought about bringing it as a Scion, but decided against it.

The people clamoring for it to be a Scion are the US executives who have a vested interest in Scion's success, since IIRC it was their grand plan to introduce the plan in the first place. The fact that rumors of this car going to Scion has caused a lot of problems for buyers should be reason enough for them to not give it to Scion. Come on Toyota, do the right thing: Toyota Celica.

@Toyota4life

Welcome to the small but vocal minority that is proudly carrying the Celica banner and lobbying for it to be applied to the production FT-86 :happy0180:

If you're citing terrible Scion sales as reason to not make the FT86 a Scion, then it makes just as little sense as to release it as a Celica.

Celica sales were terrible towards the end, which is why it died to begin with. In 2004 it sold only 8,214 of them, in its fourth model-year cycle (which is at the end of the generation, but not really that old). From 52,406 units sold in 2000, that's a huge drop that spells the death of the brand.

Hence Celica just isn't a strong name plate. Take the Supra--although it also died due to lackluster sales, it's had a dedicated following and a great reputation, which is why they're so expensive used. So in spite of the brand dying due to sales, the Supra name still has appeal. Unless you're a diehard Toyota fan, there isn't much branding appeal to a Celica.

I do agree with your point though that it'll do better as a Toyota, simply because you have a bigger dealer network to distribute/market the car.

Your premise is that it didn't sell because of the nameplate. You are wrong.

It didn't "do well" because the last celica;

a) Had polarizing styling
b) Polarizing performance
c) Lacked an all trac version

It is a strong nameplate, far stronger than anything scion could muster.

p.s. Did it really move 52k units in 2000? If regardless of anything else, it actually did that in it's first year of sale, that would go to show how damn good of a name plate it in fact is. Sounds sketchy though, not even the miata MX-5 moved those kind of numbers since it's first gen.

I think part of the last gen Celica's issues stem from the Project Genesis, pre-Scion development. It was, in a sense, the first tC. A tC before they cost cut the powertrain (best part of the car) and replaced it with one from a Camry.

And stuff like offering the 2ZZGE with a 4 speed automatic makes me think that some crack-smoking was involved as well... Or someone was deliberately trying to make it fail in order to justify the move to the Camry motor.

Huh? My premise is that if you're using sales as a gauge to measure whether a nameplate is bad (Scion), then you could do the same thing for Celica. I never said the nameplate led to bad sales, I'm saying a bad product led to bad sales which led to a not-so-strong nameplate. Not-so coincidentally, I'm also saying poor product lead to a decline in Scion sales.

Sorry, but simply saying it's a strong nameplate doesn't make it one. Scion TC blew the doors off of Celica sales last generation in total sales, hate the car as you may. 79k in 2006, 64k in 2007, 40k in 2008, it was a major seller until the downturn and the recall drama.

First you're saying I'm wrong for saying the bad nameplate led to bad sales (which I never said), now you're saying a strong nameplate lead to good sales? Even though sales tanked after the first year? The total sales throughout the lifecycle of a vehicle determines whether it's a success, not an initial spike. Go look up the sales numbers if you think it's "sketchy," it's not disputed.

Et tu Matty?

@the guy you quoted: Fun and FF don't belong in the same sentence. Its not even a drift thing, I've been a RWD nut since before I was even introduced to the culture. There's just something about being pullleed around I can't stand, not to mention understeering is about as fun as watching paint dry.

Eh, if it gets called a Celica, at least I can rest easy knowing it wasn't the Celica's heritage, fanbase, nor cult following that brought about the FT-86's conception, growth, and eventual birth. It was the AE86, its fans, and its cult following. If it gets called a Celica then its nothing but a marketing stunt, aimed at sales. Soulless.

It's funny, I have a reversed reaction with Celicas than what I get with my Supra.

Mk3 Supra scenario (ask any Mk3 owner, any REAL Mk3 owner, heh, they've all had this conversation.)

Person: "What do you drive?"
Me: "Turbo Supra."
Person: "ZOMGWTFBBQ!"
Me: "Sigh... not that Supra."
Person (visible disdain on their face): "Oh." Walks away in contempt.

Celica scenario:

Me: "What do you drive?"
Person: "Celica."
Me: (visible disdain on my face): "Oh." Ready to walk away in contempt. Chick car, in my head...
Person: "Sigh... it's an Alltrac."
Me: "ZOMGWTFBBQ!"

@1st scenario: Those are the people I laugh at and walk away from. FnF crowd, JZA80 is the only Supra that ever mattered. I know this because I was in that EXACT same scenario, as I used to own an Mk3...wish I still had it.

@2nd Scenario: Would totally happen....I hope to some day own a ST165 Alltrac.

I'm not citing Scion's poor sales. I'm citing the fact that many actual buyers for this car do NOT want it as a Scion and will take their money elsewhere if that comes to pass. The Celica's sales in its later years were also due to Toyota in their idiotic pursuit in killing all of their sports cars, not because the 7th gen was a bad car (It's a very good one). I hardly ever saw a Celica on the lots after 2003, nor did I ever see an advertisement. You can't sell what you don't make or let the public know about.

And there is PLENTY of brand awareness and appeal for the Celica name. It's one of Toyota's longest running names and is very iconic and well-known. Not to mention it's a stronger nameplate than all of Scion put together or any future crappy name like FRS they come up with.

I don't exactly get why the AE86 is so much more important than the Celica. It's a great car, but the Celica always out sold it, and it also has a long, storied heritage and one that is far longer than the AE86.

The Celica also was a RWD 2+2 seater like the AE86 and has been known for its drift appeal as well, so it's easy to argue that the FT86 is also a spiritual successor to the RWD Celicas, particularly the RA65. Surely reviving one of Toyota's storied nameplates is a better alternative than seeing this go to effing SCION of all things, which for some reason Toyota seems to want to do and completely ruin the car.

If we're going to compare sales and say that the tC's numbers make it a "stronger nameplate", then you should compare the Celica's sales globally from 1971-2006. Let's see the tC's sales then.

The Celica name is far stronger and easily identifed. Along with the Land Cruiser, Corolla, and Camry, Celica is one of Toyota's strongest names and still has a very loyal following. Scion's alpha-numeric garbage will never attain the heritage or recognition an actual name with meaning will. Ask any idiot what a Celica is and what a tC and I guarantee you more will ID the Celica.

Aki plot the sales on a chart for the years and tell me when the line hits zero. Wanna talk marketing, there is the basics

And the only reason I think it should be a Celica. I want this mofo to sell like ice in the desert and make Toyota's man parts tingle and then wait patiently for the epic 2nd gen of this car and it's continuity into the distant future. Withing that Time I expect to see an MR-2 and/or a Supra. Let's not *****foot around this Toyota. Make it happen.

Being a great product will only go some of the way to concreting this. If they chose to draw on the heritage of a recognized nameplate then the Celica has it in spades, more than the Corolla AE86 could hope to muster. Should they chose to go another route, they will have a lot of push to make, and play on their whole previous lineup (which is in fact what I hope they do).

Regardless of the fact that the AE86 Corolla GT-S inspired this car, It isn't a corolla, it's not designed to be. This is a new Toyota sports car, a re-awakening so to speak, made to stoke the fire and invigorate passion. An entry level, FR, lightweight, sports coupe for the masses, pretty much like the MX-5 began as a roadster for the masses.

Thank you very much. Logic seems to be lost a bit on Aki. Not even going to pursue arguing anymore.

For the record, I reiterate; I'm not saying that it **should** be called a Celica. I'm saying that I have no problem if they do brand it as such and marketing it as a Celica is a FAR better proposition that branding it as a Scion (just. no.) or as a Corolla (wtfbbq?)

Another pet peeve of mine. Purpose of this shit is pure marketing. Acura decided to replace 'Integra' with 'RSX' because they felt the (proud and loyal) owners were not identifying strongly enough with the brand. When asked what they drove, they would say 'an Integra', not 'an Acura'.

This apparently pissed off the people that invented 'up-branding' Japanese cars, so they killed the customer's loyalty to what was a good product and tried to force them to devote that loyalty to the whole brand.

I bet the same thinking went on in Toyota North America, when they decided on Scion's naming system.

Lol Like the first post said, If this branding causes so much problems then you should look to buying the Subie version instead XD but I really do hope it's a Toyota. Though if the Subaru is nice why not ? right hopefully they will be in a similar price range

We don't know yet... we can speculate that it will be similar price range... but Subie official haven't really said or shown anything other that recent GAIS. Hope Subie will show theirs soon (like TAS).

Toyota has an even more vested interest to call this car Celica than they realize. Toyota has been touting their reputation, quality rankings, etc. the past year after all these dumb recalls and SUA fiasco and have been advertising their sterling past to combat their not so rosy image lately. Reviving one of their past names from their glory days, especially at this juncture, is an insanely smart move.

You know what? This could be excellent... I've mentioned this before, but with the engine position where it is, they could put in an H6 without messing too much with the handling. (Hell, Subaru hung the entire EG33 in front of the front axle and the SVX's handling didn't suck.)

Now what car in Toyota's sterling past could this remind anybody of? This hypothetical Celica, which at a later point in time could could be turned into a 'super' Celica with the addition of a 6 cylinder powerplant. Hmmm... whatever could I be talking about? Maybe give it a new front-end to distinguish it from the non-'super' version. A lightish-weight RWD Toyota 6 cylinder sports car with no turbo.

Celica ST 145 hp 2.0L (current un-modified FB20?)
Inexpensive, economical, volume car. By inexpensive I mean 'Even less money than they were originally talking about'. $18k-$20k

Celica GT-S 200 hp 2.0L Harder edged. The car most of us want. At the target price. 2800bs MAX!

Then after a year or two introduce:

Celica-Supra 240 hp 3.0L H6 (I think that is the number from Subaru's current 3.0L) With a minor re-style this could appeal to older crowd, smoother, but don't turn it into a marshmallow. Maybe an optional twin-clutch? Base price +$3k-$5k? 3100 lbs MAX! Lexus version? How would this price and performance compare with the fabled Mustang?

On a single platform this gives 3 very different cars that hit a huge potential market range. Plus it gives a potential product 'Ladder' within Toyota. It fits in with the past, and by using the Celica-Supra name, it re-introduces the Supra nameplate but reminds us turbo Supra owners that there were two generations before it was the hardcore turbo beast most know, and can justify its non-GTR performance that way.

First off, welcome. Honestly, you use my previous forum name and every single number/word is alike.:bellyroll::bellyroll:

I know you want it to be a Celica, but I think it has a very slim chance to happen. Toyota showed the poster of sportcar heritage includes Supra MK4, Celica (all trac?), AE86 Levin and FT-86. I think they show a clue of a new born name. I could be wrong tho.

Never said it needed to be called a Corolla. Infact I would cringe hard on that, because Corolla's aren't even a shadow of their former selves. Ironically, the AE86 was a 'Corolla' by chassis designation; thats designation, not the -same- chassis. They shared nothing else, of importance, with the normal econobox Corollas, other than that "E" in their chassis code. The Sprinter Trueno / Levin series were a completely different car. Your take is as good as mine as to why they were always just branded Corolla's over here in America, instead of something else that would've made it known as the mini-Celica, or something. Levin would've been just fine.
Indeed, and such a car is deserving of a fresh start and a fresh name, not reinvent the image of a car who's legacy crashed into the dark side of the moon in a blaze of non-glory.

The AE86 was a Toyota. I would like this younger brother to be the same.

I have seen my fair share of E86 Shitbox corollas with carbed piss poor engines, and nary a shred of perfromance hardware in sight apart from the basic chassis. However, yes, the Trueno/Levin could almost be it's own line of car, even after they became FF.

I think Scion tC was Celica successor, and LFA be badge as Lexus, so this new sport car should be badge as Toyota Supra. This name is awesome.

No I6, No Supra revival.

Not almost; it is.

And you're talking about the SR-5 trimmed AE86's. In japan, and other countries, the "shitbox" non-performance AE's came in AE85 chassis', which were even less solid and sturdy chassis' (if thats even POSSIBLE, lol), as they came without certain reinforcements in key stress areas.

The reason the SR-5 trim is put on an AE86....twofold probably:
1) Save money by standardizing the chassis over here.
2) Safety, the AE86 chassis was more sturdy than the AE85.

You will not find many, very few, similarities between a real Corolla, say the AE82, and the Sprinter/Levin AE86's.

It should also be noted that in Japan its not "Toyota Corolla Sprinter Trueno", its just "Toyota Sprinter Trueno", only the Levin was branded underneath Corolla.

Again, same thing could be said for the Toyota Celica. From 52k annual sales to 4k, it pretty much already hit zero.

Being badged as a Scion is actually good for people who want to buy it at launch. The zero price haggling means you wouldn't content with obscene mark-up as you'd do in a normal Toyota dealership. That said, they won't get marked up after 6 mos to a year so it's not that big of an advantage.