This morning at the Parking lot....i walked by 50 scion tCs....before I got to my car.

Went to a toyota dealership over here in Cali, took dad to pick up new truck, and talked to one of the guys at the counter and started asking about the Ft-86. It wasnt untill i mentioned that it might be a scion that he finally took to what i was saying and so said,

"Ya the scion guys are really excited about it, its supposed to be a rocket."

And so ends the dilemma of what it will be labeled as. :sigh:

^ guys at dealerships don't know shit about future vehicles

True. Dealerships rarely know about future product plans unless they are a big-name, high-sale figures one.

Way back when the Infiniti G35 sedan was going to be given AWD. Even though it was suppose to go on sale within the next few months, the dealer still had no idea.

I wonder is it will be rebadged/spec'd/styled for both Scion and Toyota. For example, a base model Scion version and the 2.5L Toyota version. It's already kinda being done with both a Toyota/Suby version, can't hurt to add a FR car to the Scion brand since they are investing in "Scion Racing" so much with FF tC's. Anyhow, the more they use the platform the better and this solution would make everyone happy. (I'm just glad we don't have the Scion brand in Japan haha)

Man. How great would it be if Toyota just came out after Geneva and said, "Surprise! All that talk about North America getting this car as a Scion was a big joke!" Then we could just browse through all these pages and just laugh. Would be the most epic April Fools joke, too.

Since there's no "who cares" option I voted Scion.

I don't care if it's called the Twinkletoes FT-86, I'll still buy it. I mean what's the big deal? If you don't like the Scion badge, get dental floss, take off the emblem, stick Toyota emblem on, done.

As for not liking Scion because it's a "girl's brand" or rice-rocket niche or whatever, I say man up. Are you buying the car to please other people or yourself? I don't care if people think it's as girly as a Miata so long as it's 2600-ish lbs, 200hp and w/ a six-speed tranny. I'm wanting the car for the driving experience, not because I'll look cool in it. If you care about image, buy a used M3 or something.

Nothing about looking kool when you drive a Toyota, and if brand image doesn't convince you, you can slap Scion badge on it when it comes out as Toyota (maybe L badge because you don't care). Personal preference. With everything said and done, I still choose Toyota or Subaru.

Still on this?

Still?

I voted Toyota....because its Toyota.

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2011...-s-in-usa.aspx

lol. Read the comments. Gold.

They're quoting the 'Toyobaru' forum as their source. Forfucksakes...

:bellyroll::bellyroll: that's the best thing I've seen in a long time.

:bellyroll: I know I know... I just linked it for you guys to have a gander at the comment section.

Scion means no factory options beyond the manual/auto choice. Which means I'm that much less likely to get LSD from the factory or a hatch. That's why I care.

I remember the Scion options list being quite long. There's a bunch of exterior and interior accessories. Then there's the TRD add-ons. I'd bet you'd be able spec an LSD under the Scion badge.

Yep still...:thumbsup:

Where you been at I miss our lively debates :happy0180:

If anything it seems like there'd be more options for Scion, given that it's the brand that emphasizes customizing and tuning--for better or for worse. I doubt brand identity would impact your choice of options much.

Perception-wise, Toyota branding would feel more mature and grown up, but seems like that's a double-edged sword too.

'No options' is part of the Scion strategy. You can only choose dealer installed stuff.

And I won't pay dealer rates to have an LSD installed. For reference, the Scion tC LSD is $1,350 and they'll charge you at least $1,000 to install it.

Worst case scenario, you can always buy the TRD LSD and install it yourself or bring it somewhere else.
You'll get what you want in the end.

I would. That's my point. But I'd much rather just have a factory warrantied one as an option for $500. And they usually run only that much as a factory option.

Some sales figures from http://www.helloscion.com/en/History.aspx

2004: 99,259
2005: 156,485
2006: 173,034
2007: 130,181
2008: 113,904
2009: 57,961
2010: Only Jan and Feb numbers (6,062 in 2 months extrapolate that to est. 36,372 for the year).

Will the FT86 be well-served by this poorly-performing brand?

Will the future of Toyota sports cars be well-served by making the FT86 a Scion?

There is no way that the FT86 as a Scion will help them recover 100,000 units per year, even by the trickle-down sales effect of a halo car, leading people into xB's or tC's.

Kill the goddamn brand already and free up corporate resources for engineering. Toyota tried almost the exact same system as GM did with Saturn (youth oriented, fixed pricing, a different 'feel'). It didn't work for GM and it's not working for Toyota.

The Scion brand was made because of the failed "Project Genesis"

Project Genesis included selling the latest generation MR2 spyder, Celica, and Echo under the Toyota badge. None of which saw successful or consistent sales figures. Toyota scrapped "Project Genesis" and soon after they began Scion.

I'm betting Toyota is following the "history repeats itself" mantra with the FT86, and probably secretly hoping to show GM that they Scion was/is better than Saturn.

Project genesis failed because they didn't bother to make an awd turbo Celica for that generation, and only put 130hp in the MR-S while making it woefully impractical and charging $25k for it (still love them both to bits though). The Echo was just....... slow and ugly :barf:

Here, the product failed as well as the marketing.

My opinion is that the product was made to fit the marketing (in this case targeting Generation Y), and not the other (proper) way around of starting with a good product and trying to figure out how to sell it to as many people as possible.

Marketing demographics are very fluid and can change rapidly, designing a product line (especially a very expensive investment-requirement one like a car) around a specific demographic is retarded. This may work well in the short term, but as shown by Scion's RAPIDLY declining sales, not so much in the long term as the target evolves and changes.

And check this out, bios on the people in charge of the Scion site I got the numbers from, which hasn't been updated since early last year (signs of things to come?).

http://www.helloscion.com/Bio.aspx

Jack Hollis, VP Scion; and Dawn Ahmed, Corporate Manager Scion.

Read these bios, and ask yourself if these people have ANY business being involved with the performance side of a automotive company.

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2011...-s-in-usa.aspx

Dimman. Were you disguised as h3ae86 on that page? The last sentence just sounds like something you would say. Or someone else really shares your opinion.

Not long enough, and not enough hateful ranting to be me. Heh...

(My sig is a WAY toned down version if what I really feel...)

Edit:

I appreciate how this guy thinks (wonder if he really is a former Toyota rep, and sure hope the 'confirmation' isn't true...):

We won't know until it goes on sale, but Scion could be creating a marketing scheme made specifically for this car. Car companies stir up new mottos, taglines, etc etc. all the time. Some even go through a complete re-imagination. There is the chance that Scion will be "reborn".
If this "new scion" is all about giving more cool cars then I'm all for it.

If they think they can just squeeze the 86 into the current Scion then I will have to side with all of you saying it will end badly.

Depends on how specific. If you only target 18yr old males, that's too specific, because you're right in saying their ideals and preferences change each generation. I think Scion right now is just on the edge of being too specific.

Car brands are purposely geared towards a set group of people. If everyone was making everything it'd be a bit strange. Buick is geared towards the older individual in a way that Subaru would never be, or probably would never want to be. When you target a general age group, you can be assured that the there will always be a new set to replace the old (When teens become adults, kids become teens and thus fills the void. cycle cycle cycle.)

I think Scion's decline in sales is due more to the fact that they haven't made any progress since their debut line. The newest model they've added is the tC and that was all the way back in 2004/05 and it's revamp this year isn't as great as it should be.

The 2nd generation of the xB and the xA/xD weren't great leaps forward either. Added onto that the countless hoards of "release edition" models with nothing more than fancy paint and a higher price tag.

When has company made more money by not doing anything? Hopefully they are now aware of this.

I'll give Toyota/Scion the benefit of the doubt on this one. They should take care of those extra lives while they still got'em.

Sounds like the Chevy Cruze -- which is a big load of fail IMO.

Prefer the Cruze to the Cobalt. kinda.

Ok, I can agree with that -- but its still a fail campaign.

The problem with Scion's image is that it is already somewhat a 'performance' image. Based on their concepts and the money they throw at real race teams to stick 'Scion' appearances on cars completely unrelated to the cars people buy. (Titan 2JZ powered 'Scion'???)

This has created a backlash in the real performance community. Plus all their retarded Scion Nation ads, and spamming the import shows with terrible Fast and Furious versions of 'custom' cars.

This will not go away with the FT86 as a halo car. The dealers are still geared up to sell stereos and cosmetic garbage to people who want to 'customize' their cars.

What we will get will be an odd mix of a very few legitimately fast cars given to certain companies to promote the brand, and a ridiculous amount of riced-out show and street cars.

April's Import Tuner magazine has a feature on a couple of Scion tC's (as well as my buddy's Supra). They won first and second place in the Scion Tuner Challenge. First, neither of these guys bought the cars. They were given to them by Scion. Secondly Scion gave them $15K each to mod them. Plus it's only for Scions (obviously).

The second place car, looks all racey and track built. The reference Rado in the text. But, never been on the track and never will be. As for its second place finish: No audio. No win. Sheesh...

The first place 'tuner' (with massive subs and airbag suspension!) doesn't even know how to put directional tires on properly on his staggered (not FWD staggered) rims... (Photo page 50)

That's what Scion wants. A race car that will never race, and a ridiculous riced-out and bagged car with directional tires on backwards.

But for what? Do these guys get to keep them? Nope. They go back to Scion to be used in the ads of show cars they use to promote customization, but always with the:

"Vehicles shown are special project cars, modified with non-Genuine Scion parts and accessories. Modification with these non-Genuine Scion parts or accessories will void the Scion warranty, may negatively impact vehicle performance and safety, and may not be street legal."

disclaimer.

They will use a custom car to sell their cars, then threaten to void warranties if you don't use their Genuine Scion parts. Horseshit. But this has led to the sense that most Scion customized cars are flamboyant riced-out, stereo filled crap, as a lot of the drivers do exactly what the brand wants them to. Buy their crap over-priced dealer options.

(BTW both those cars have turbo kits, and even if there was a third car with the same power, they wouldn't top my buddy's Supra's power.)

Think of the ricer image. Adding a legitimate product to a brand that already has a ricer reputation, isn't going to cure the reputation, as the ricers are still there. I liken this to Toyota putting a gun to my head to switch brands and hang out with ricers. To that I say 'Fuck you, Toyota. That Subaru looks like a nice option.' Now with the many people that may feel the same way as me, going to Subaru for this car, there is immediate lost sales potential right there. This includes mature former Supra, MR2 or Celica owners that maybe the kids have grown up and its time to buy a fun car, but stepping 'down' to a Scion doesn't cross their mind (maybe they go IS, Miata or 1 series, who knows?)

Bottom line, look at the sales figures I posted. The disgruntled former fans won't help Scion increase their sales by the nearly 120,000! annual units that it has lost since 2006. It will be an expensive showroom car, that gets passed over, and dealers dislike because it's harder to sell to the Scion-target market. The sales don't go up. It gets labeled a failure and it and the whole dying brand gets canned.

Just like Saturn.

(Worst case scenario.)

cruzes are complete garbage, even the pathetic turbo ones.







Well said Dimman.

Dimman, I get what you're saying. I hate the ricer plague just as much.
I'm with you on all of your latest points.
I don't have much to counter with besides wishful thinking and theory. But I do have some faith that Toyota/Scion can regain sales slowly but surely if they play the cards right.

Like most good cars, I think ricers are going to grab at it with their disease-ridden claws...regardless of the badge.
But then, it should be a great car, regardless of the badge too.

Setting the record straight: The logic side of my brain can justify why it should be a Scion (marketing possibility and profit), but the other thing...MY SOUL, says it should be a Toyota (pedigree, tradition, car lore)

My logical side screams "what the fuck is with Scion? What a waste of breath saying it."

There is the rumour of the change to a cost-conscious switch to Subaru's base 2.5L instead of a Yamaha modified 2.0L. This would be a Scion-specified change. There would likely be a de-contenting of stuff like an LSD or more aggressive stock suspension tuning, so the dealers can make more money on install options (while reducing the initial purchase cost, they would increase the as-delivered cost due to the 'stealerships' ridiculous install costs). These are steps backward.

Logic and soul say Toyota to me. While a Scion-branded car can be seen as a negative to enthusiasts, I don't see the reversed effect with a Toyota branding (this equals a broader potential customer range and more sales). Plus it saves on marketing, as there can be shared efforts internationally. (FIA GT racing, Toyota?) I don't see how Scion can make more profit for Toyota, with its decreasing sales, but the dealers probably make more per car on all the option installs. This is a lose-lose situation for Toyota and the consumer while the dealers laugh all the way to the bank.

Toyota needs to stop wasting money on Scion. Kill it. Fire the management and marketing fools. Then put that money directly into engineering's budget. Build a real performance 'skunk works' engineering team, and stop off-loading their 'R&D' to shitty Scion 'tuners' (and NASCAR...).

Seriously look at those declining numbers!!! Why weren't these Scion management retards purged years ago??? Because they've put some bullshit spin on it that "Scion's not about making money. It's about getting kids into Scions so they can move up to Toyotas."??? If they didn't build boring-ass Toyota's there would be no need to make a brand that is just dressed-up 'cool' boring-ass Toyotas, which clearly isn't even working anyways.

This car should seriously be called a Toyota Corolla GT-S (I would personally call it a Corolla N86 for 'new' or 'next'). It accomplishes two things: Rekindling the performance heritage of the AE86, as well as associating 'Corolla' and 'awesome' together in a way that hasn't been done in decades.

Instant marketing purpose achieved. Get kids into Toyotas. Get enthusiasts into Toyotas. Re-invigorate Toyota's image. One simple name.

But it would need a follow-up series of cars from Toyota. Where do you go from FT86? Camry? Avalon? Yawn... Closest cars are the Lexus IS series. They need an intermediate RWD performance car stepping stone. A new 2GR V6 RWD Celica perhaps? (This applies even if they go Scion...)

No. Regardless of what inspired it, this car is not a corolla, and a corolla is not what it was 25 years ago. Levin or Trueno would be completely cool to me, but I can completely see Johnny and Jane consumer looking at it and wondering "wtfbbq??!?! Corolla??!!?"

a) Why should marketing possibility be put at the forefront of this car? Furthermore, one should ask themselves, is scion worth risking a sales failure for the FT-86 and by extension, risking the possibilty of a second gen 86 and the resurgence of Toyota sports cars? Take into consideration this is the point of view of a person who thinks Scion has potential and can still work out to be a good thing (just that the FT-86 shouldn't be a scion).

b) Wouldn't Toyota stand to profit even more marketing this car as a ...well Toyota, rather than a scion?

Scions are not sold in every Toyota dealership, but Toyotas are sold in every Scion dealership. People will still come and see, and if mom and dad don't want a rwd for Jonny Drifter jr, they can be easily pointed toward the tC.

Just looking for validity (no right or wrong) Toyota has plenty of reason to put the Scion badge on it vs. a Toyota one.

1) The buyers for Scion are significantly younger than those for Toyota (30's vs. 50's) It wouldn't be wrong to think that a small RWD sports-car would be embraced by the younger crowd. These are the research figures, Toyota isn't going to ignore them.

2) Toyota has already taken risk with the Project Genesis cars, one can argue that the marketing for those weren't any good and that the cars were sub-rate as well. BUT I'm sure Toyota doesn't think the same, they probably believe they did a great job with the Celica & MR2. It's rare for a car company to believe their product is/was inadequate.

This is what worries me. They would indeed save money if they just stuck the 86 into Scion's current ad/marketing scheme. I hate this idea.

I'm hoping that they will create a "new scion", but that would cost money, time, and a whole lot of effort.

BUT fitting the 86 into what Toyota is currently perceived as (boring cars for older people, certainly not the enthusiast brand it used to be) would cost just as much money. Fitting a square peg into a round socket deal here.

IMO a "New Scion" is the smartest option and hopefully what the execs are actually doing.

- "Market research" shows that those "young buyers" aren't the ones spending the money. Scion has it's fair share of grandpas and grandmas driving them too. The young-uns drive the tC and Gen 1 xB.

- Toyota has to acknowledge that they were sub-par efforts. If they didn't, I'd like to think there are many more things that they should worry about. Toyota isn't say, GM.

- Toyota. Supra. MR2. Corolla GT-S, FX, XRS. Celica All Trac, GT-S. 2000GT.

Scion...... oh wait.

Square peg in a round hole.

- Are you crazy? Creating a "new scion"? :slap: GTFO.

I'm sure they do, but the average driver age is still in lower than Toyota's.

I have no idea if they ever acknowledged they did a bad job. In GM's case, only years after did Bob Lutz admit that the Pontiac Aztec was a bad idea.

Not sure why you're naming cars. I know Toyota has a rich history of sports car. I said it's not the brand's image right now in 2011.
"New Scion" means a new mentality for Scion. How is this crazy? Cadillac has done it, all of GM is in the midst of a renovation, so is Volvo, Hyundai/Kia, Suzuki even.

This has resulted in nothing but improved products. Does it mean they're all awesome now? No, but drastically better than the old, that's for sure.

I know Toyota wants to reinvigorate their brand, but I'm betting they know that Scion needs to so much more.
With the two options of:
a) Kill Scion.
b) Badge 86 as a Scion

Plan B doesn't scare the investors, it follows with what their research figures say with the age group, it fits in better than with 2011 Toyota. Any chance to fix the brand, Toyota is going to take it.

New-Matador:

The term 'average' isn't always what people think it is. Scion could be selling 99% of its cars split evenly between only 50 year olds and 20 year-olds, but that makes the average buyers age 35, which isn't an accurate picture of who's buying the cars.

It's depressing to think that Toyota has sank countless dollars into a brand that you feel needs a light freshening after only 10 years. And considering there are only 2 generations of product in that span... People need to be fired (so they don't 're-structure' back into Toyota and do more damage), and then Scion needs to be killed.

Suzuki, I haven't seen much of a change in, Volvo got marginally less ugly, and Hyundai's quality has been improving which is a legitimate improvement, not a marketing image fix.

Cadillac is your best example out of that bunch, but they moved more upscale, not down, as well as going after BMW dynamically. They moved down in the age of buyers, but not to the point where it was targeting kids. GM may be able to do make some good changes after the bankruptcy scared some sense into them. I worry that Toyota in its new number one position will follow in GM's old retarded footsteps.

Scion spent 10 years building a terrible image of douchey kids who want DJ booths in their cars. It will take time and a LOT of money to erase that image and creating a new one.

Edit for your edit: Go back to those sales numbers I posted. They are selling about 120,000 cars less per year than 4-5 years ago! Less than 50%!


Old Matador:

I've been thinking that the Corolla GT-S nameplate would work very, very well for this car. It has instant name recognition by anyone who has thought about buying a car. In AE86 form it was respected as a sports cars, even by those who haven't adopted the fanboi's 8-6 designation.

Some OG Supra guys I talk to:
Me: "Nice 86 over there."
OG Supra guy: "What?"
Me: "Drift Corolla."
OG Supra guy: "Oh yeah, nice."

There are older folks that may have fond memories of their first GT-S but never went hard-core enthusiast about them. Younger kids could get mommy and daddy to the dealer to look at the new Corolla a lot easier than the new Levin or Trueno (Tru-eh-no?). It has the platform to drift or race if that is what's wanted. They could even race in FIA GT3 class (I think? GT4? They keep changing...) internationally to raise excitement for Corolllas and Toyotas.

I think it has the widest reach of any name, as well as good heritage.

Either way, though, Toyota needs a move-up car for after this and before the IS, whether it's a Scion or Toyota.